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Is Black Lives Matter Marxist? No and Yes.

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  • #61
    Black Lives Matter Founder: ​​​​​​​“Our Goal is to Get Trump Out. We're trained Marxists, super versed on... Ideological Theories.”

    “We actually do have an ideological frame." We "are trained organizers. We're trained Marxists.”


    It's interesting -- the links I've used in the past to expose their agenda are quite "softened", but include "donate money" blockers.
    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

    Comment


    • #62
      Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

      Marxist governments have also taken care of the needy and the sick. Universal healthcare and housing - the latter might not have been quite up to modern US requirements - but people had a roof over their heads, their needs were met, and their children were educated.
      OK then, again I ask, if Marxism has succeeded in these goals then the people should be happy and content, correct? Not poor and miserable. If they have housing but it is in a slum and they have food, but have to wait in line for a day to get a stale loaf of bread, or eat out of garbage cans, or they have to wait 6 months to see a doctor, then you can claim Marxism has "taken care of the needy" but just really, really poorly.

      So again, what Marxist countries have succeeded in achieving these goals and in which all (or even most) of the people are content and have a good standard of living and freedom?

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
        Black Lives Matter Founder: ​​​​​​​“Our Goal is to Get Trump Out. We're trained Marxists, super versed on... Ideological Theories.”

        “We actually do have an ideological frame." We "are trained organizers. We're trained Marxists.”


        It's interesting -- the links I've used in the past to expose their agenda are quite "softened", but include "donate money" blockers.
        I've found a couple of places that have quoted the actual site, perhaps before the deletion of certain points.

        https://signalscv.com/2020/06/gary-c...-lives-matter/

        https://www.acton.org/publications/t...matter-believe

        https://thefederalist.com/2020/07/02...nd-capitalism/

        https://tennesseestar.com/2020/06/29...orate-america/

        This last one in particular has a good quote:

        The following principles and objectives are included in the Black Lives Matter movement’s official declaration:

        We are self-reflexive and do the work required to dismantle cisgender privilege and uplift Black trans folk, especially Black trans women who continue to be disproportionately impacted by trans-antagonistic violence.

        We build a space that affirms Black women and is free from sexism, misogyny, and environments in which men are centered.

        We disrupt the Western-prescribed nuclear family structure requirement by supporting each other as extended families and “villages” that collectively care for one another, especially our children, to the degree that mothers, parents, and children are comfortable.

        We foster a queer‐affirming network. When we gather, we do so with the intention of freeing ourselves from the tight grip of heteronormative thinking, or rather, the belief that all in the world are heterosexual (unless s/he or they disclose otherwise).


        Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

        Comment


        • #64
          regret NOT doing so

          Originally posted by mossrose View Post
          I've found a couple of places that have quoted the actual site, perhaps before the deletion of certain points.

          https://signalscv.com/2020/06/gary-c...-lives-matter/

          https://www.acton.org/publications/t...matter-believe

          https://thefederalist.com/2020/07/02...nd-capitalism/

          https://tennesseestar.com/2020/06/29...orate-america/

          This last one in particular has a good quote:

          The following principles and objectives are included in the Black Lives Matter movement’s official declaration:

          We are self-reflexive and do the work required to dismantle cisgender privilege and uplift Black trans folk, especially Black trans women who continue to be disproportionately impacted by trans-antagonistic violence.

          We build a space that affirms Black women and is free from sexism, misogyny, and environments in which men are centered.

          We disrupt the Western-prescribed nuclear family structure requirement by supporting each other as extended families and “villages” that collectively care for one another, especially our children, to the degree that mothers, parents, and children are comfortable.

          We foster a queer‐affirming network. When we gather, we do so with the intention of freeing ourselves from the tight grip of heteronormative thinking, or rather, the belief that all in the world are heterosexual (unless s/he or they disclose otherwise).
          In the past, I have printed the page, or taken screenshots --- I regret NOT doing so in this case, particularly.

          Naturally, a leftist will see no problem with these things, and may even agree.

          HOWEVER, much of this goes against what the majority of Blacks in America think and believe.
          Last edited by Cow Poke; 07-09-2020, 10:06 AM.
          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
            As I said, the website is changed. I'm trying to find an archived copy. Apparently, they have been getting a lot of push-back from conservative sources attacking their Marxist roots.
            As I never looked at the site prior to its apparent redactions I cannot comment.

            Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post

            There's enough there for a whole new thread.
            Oh there is plenty more where that came from!

            Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
            What we have seen from the Marxists in our country includes the wanton destruction of history, rioting and looting, "stature topplers" (a quaint way to describe anarchists).
            On what evidence are all these people deemed to be "Marxists"?


            Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
            The whole "defund the police" movement has shown how much worse off cities have become already when adopting the "new ideas".
            As I understand it, from what I have read regarding the Defund the Police campaign, the suggestion was that some of the money currently expended on the police forces might be better spent on improving infrastructure, housing, healthcare and so on. We know that poverty as well as inequality and injustices often lead to resentment and hostility which can then erupt into violence. Indeed, from history that is how many revolutions have begun, including your own.

            Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post

            OK, here's the problem with that rationale --- American is VERY divided, including the media. The media outlets who are in agreement with the "new ideas" are certainly NOT going to be critical of anything they support. We USED to have honest journalism (or maybe I'm naive about that, too) but today's "journalism" is more about BECOMING or MAKING the news than it is reporting it. Dismissing something out of hand because it comes from a conservative leaning source is not really legitimate.
            I did not dismiss the articles out of hand I merely remarked that I would read those links and their comments with a degree of caution [i.e. the proverbial spoonful of salt].


            Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post

            But, yes, an actual video, to me, is even better than a transcript. Still looking into this.
            In bocca al lupo!
            "It ain't necessarily so
            The things that you're liable
            To read in the Bible
            It ain't necessarily so
            ."

            Sportin' Life
            Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by Sparko View Post
              OK then, again I ask, if Marxism has succeeded in these goals then the people should be happy and content, correct? Not poor and miserable. If they have housing but it is in a slum and they have food, but have to wait in line for a day to get a stale loaf of bread, or eat out of garbage cans, or they have to wait 6 months to see a doctor, then you can claim Marxism has "taken care of the needy" but just really, really poorly.
              The above reads more like a description of the impoverished in many parts of the USA.

              Originally posted by Sparko View Post
              So again, what Marxist countries have succeeded in achieving these goals and in which all (or even most) of the people are content and have a good standard of living and freedom?
              You have define what you deem to be "a good standard of living " and what you understand by "freedom". A philosopher might offer you various interpretations and scenarios for that latter concept.
              "It ain't necessarily so
              The things that you're liable
              To read in the Bible
              It ain't necessarily so
              ."

              Sportin' Life
              Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                On what evidence are all these people deemed to be "Marxists"?
                I'm disappointed. I actually thought you were above that.

                As I understand it, from what I have read regarding the Defund the Police campaign, the suggestion was that some of the money currently expended on the police forces might be better spent on improving infrastructure, housing, healthcare and so on. We know that poverty as well as inequality and injustices often lead to resentment and hostility which can then erupt into violence. Indeed, from history that is how many revolutions have begun, including your own.
                In some versions, yes. In other versions, it means TOTALLY defund the police and replace them with unarmed community workers, though they can't quite figure out how that will work.

                I did not dismiss the articles out of hand I merely remarked that I would read those links and their comments with a degree of caution [i.e. the proverbial spoonful of salt].
                Which is EXACTLY why I usually go to the "opponent's" preference of source, to show them what their OWN side is saying. This was the intent with the BLM website, but they appear to have watered it down quite a bit.

                In bocca al lupo!
                I like my coffee hot, black and simple.
                The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                Comment


                • #68
                  maduro-venezuela-blm-founder-pix.jpg

                  I'm always still in trouble again

                  "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                  "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                  "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                    The above reads more like a description of the impoverished in many parts of the USA.

                    You have define what you deem to be "a good standard of living " and what you understand by "freedom". A philosopher might offer you various interpretations and scenarios for that latter concept.
                    Dodging noted. You do that a lot.

                    The answer is: There are no such examples because every Marxist regime is an utter failure and testament to human misery.
                    Last edited by Sparko; 07-09-2020, 02:07 PM.

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                      Dodging noted. You do that a lot.

                      The answer is: There are no such examples because every Marxist regime is an utter failure and testament to human misery.
                      Yup. If there were any Marxist success stories she would gladly list them rather than play her little games.

                      I'm always still in trouble again

                      "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                      "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                      "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                        The above reads more like a description of the impoverished in many parts of the USA.
                        Mostly myth

                        https://www.justfacts.com/news_poore...er_than_europe

                        The Poorest 20% of Americans Are Richer on Average Than Most Nations of Europe
                        By James D. Agresti
                        August 26, 2019

                        A groundbreaking study by Just Facts has discovered that after accounting for all income, charity, and non-cash welfare benefits like subsidized housing and Food Stamps—the poorest 20% of Americans consume more goods and services than the national averages for all people in most affluent countries. This includes the majority of countries in the prestigious Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD), including its European members. In other words, if the U.S. “poor” were a nation, it would be one of the world’s richest.

                        Notably, this study was reviewed by Dr. Henrique Schneider, professor of economics at Nordakademie University in Germany and the chief economist of the Swiss Federation of Small and Medium-Sized Enterprises. After examining the source data and Just Facts’ methodology, he concluded: “This study is sound and conforms with academic standards. I personally think it provides valuable insight into poverty measures and adds considerably to this field of research.”

                        The “Poorest” Rich Nation?
                        In a July 1st New York Times video op-ed that decries “fake news” and calls for “a more truthful approach” to “the myth of America as the greatest nation on earth,” Times producers Taige Jensen and Nayeema Raza claim that the U.S. has “fallen well behind Europe” in many respects and has “more in common with ‘developing countries’ than we’d like to admit.”

                        “One good test” of this, they say, is how the U.S. ranks in the OECD, a group of “36 countries, predominantly wealthy, Western, and Democratic.” While examining these rankings, they corrupt the truth in ways that violate the Times’ op-ed standards, which declare that “you can have any opinion you would like,” but “the facts in a piece must be supported and validated,” and “you can’t say that a certain battle began on a certain day if it did not.”

                        A prime example is their claim that “America is the richest country” in the OECD, “but we’re also the poorest, with a whopping 18% poverty rate—closer to Mexico than Western Europe.” That assertion prompted Just Facts to conduct a rigorous, original study of this issue with data from the OECD, the World Bank, and the U.S. government’s Bureau of Economic Analysis. It found that the Times is not merely wrong about this issue but is reporting the polar opposite of reality... (more)

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by Ronson View Post
                          Mostly myth

                          https://www.justfacts.com/news_poore...er_than_europe

                          The Poorest 20% of Americans Are Richer on Average Than Most Nations of Europe
                          By James D. Agresti
                          August 26, 2019

                          A groundbreaking study by Just Facts has discovered that after accounting for all income, charity, and non-cash welfare benefits like subsidized housing and Food Stamps—the poorest 20% of Americans consume more goods and services than the national averages for all people in most affluent countries. This includes the majority of countries in the prestigious Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD), including its European members. In other words, if the U.S. “poor” were a nation, it would be one of the world’s richest.

                          Notably, this study was reviewed by Dr. Henrique Schneider, professor of economics at Nordakademie University in Germany and the chief economist of the Swiss Federation of Small and Medium-Sized Enterprises. After examining the source data and Just Facts’ methodology, he concluded: “This study is sound and conforms with academic standards. I personally think it provides valuable insight into poverty measures and adds considerably to this field of research.”

                          The “Poorest” Rich Nation?
                          In a July 1st New York Times video op-ed that decries “fake news” and calls for “a more truthful approach” to “the myth of America as the greatest nation on earth,” Times producers Taige Jensen and Nayeema Raza claim that the U.S. has “fallen well behind Europe” in many respects and has “more in common with ‘developing countries’ than we’d like to admit.”

                          “One good test” of this, they say, is how the U.S. ranks in the OECD, a group of “36 countries, predominantly wealthy, Western, and Democratic.” While examining these rankings, they corrupt the truth in ways that violate the Times’ op-ed standards, which declare that “you can have any opinion you would like,” but “the facts in a piece must be supported and validated,” and “you can’t say that a certain battle began on a certain day if it did not.”

                          A prime example is their claim that “America is the richest country” in the OECD, “but we’re also the poorest, with a whopping 18% poverty rate—closer to Mexico than Western Europe.” That assertion prompted Just Facts to conduct a rigorous, original study of this issue with data from the OECD, the World Bank, and the U.S. government’s Bureau of Economic Analysis. It found that the Times is not merely wrong about this issue but is reporting the polar opposite of reality... (more)
                          This has been noted many times. Many of America's poor would be considered middle class in a lot of Western European countries.

                          As one who has been in a number of Third World countries (including Haiti when it was REALLY bad[1]) I've seen real poverty. The example I often cite is how while in Central America we spent a day in a town that had just installed a spigot in the center of town so that the people didn't have to go over a ridge/hill every day so that they could get fresh water from a nearby creek. They were hoping that next year they could afford to pour some concrete around the spigot so they wouldn't have to stand in the mud when they filled their buckets.

                          For the most part, poverty in the U.S. means having to buy a generic cola rather than a Coca-cola or Pepsi.





                          1. Coincidentally around the same time me older little brudder from anudder mudder was their doing Missionary &/or relief work.

                          I'm always still in trouble again

                          "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                          "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                          "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            it will be nice when we can all work with the same facts.

                            maybe I can set up a fact-checking website.

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Meanwhile, Just had a meeting with the second in command at the PD - my black friend - and he's 100% on board with my approach.

                              Right out of the chute, he opined that the "black lives matter sentiment" is fine, but the organization that hijacked the message is, in effect, a bunch of snakes.
                              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                                This has been noted many times. Many of America's poor would be considered middle class in a lot of Western European countries.

                                As one who has been in a number of Third World countries (including Haiti when it was REALLY bad[1]) I've seen real poverty. The example I often cite is how while in Central America we spent a day in a town that had just installed a spigot in the center of town so that the people didn't have to go over a ridge/hill every day so that they could get fresh water from a nearby creek. They were hoping that next year they could afford to pour some concrete around the spigot so they wouldn't have to stand in the mud when they filled their buckets.

                                For the most part, poverty in the U.S. means having to buy a generic cola rather than a Coca-cola or Pepsi.

                                1. Coincidentally around the same time me older little brudder from anudder mudder was their doing Missionary &/or relief work.
                                When I worked at a food bank, I found that many of our customers drove in by car. Can you imagine owning an operational car in another country and being called "poor"? This was 20 years ago so cell phones were pretty rare, but I would guess that most customers today also own those. They have flat-screen TVs, electricity and refrigeration.

                                There is a poverty problem in the U.S. but the really impoverished have issues that create their conditions. Drug/alcohol addiction, mental illness, and a social welfare net that enables some to prefer living on the bottom rungs if it means not having to work. But aside from those issues, people who really want to elevate themselves can here.

                                They can't in a Marxist paradise.

                                Comment

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