Can't Mandate Masks

[mikewhitney]

I've provided just as much substantiation as you have, and assumed you could go looking for futher details if you cared to.


It's a complete waste of my time to do so. It's been presented so often and in such detail that anyone who claims not to have seen it isn't interested in seeing it. I know you've been polite here in this post, and I apologize if I sound insulting, but I literally can't find a kind way to characterize people who refuse to look for information with an open mind.

This isn't a debate. Masks work.


That is false. The evidence you're referring to is fringe-at-best, and is dwarfed by the mountains of evidence in the other direction. Masks are effective, and they are generally safe to wear except in the most extreme situations.

It is amazing how hidden that evidence is of your perspective. I am not going to rely on your waving of hands as proof of the effectiveness of masks for people in public. I prefer the science.

[mikewhitney]

I've been wearing masks lately because I have to in my line of work, and now I have gotten used to wearing them so it's almost habit.

Are they effective? Obviously they are if the wearer is infected, and is prone to coughing or sneezing. But I honestly believe more viruses (virii) are transferred via surfaces than through the air. My wife washes her hands constantly and rarely ever gets sick. I am trying to emulate her since I have a "dry eye" condition that causes me to rub my eyes often. And I get sick far more often.

Should they be mandated? That depends. If a business requires a person to wear a mask to do business there, that is a reasonable right. The same goes for government buildings. Should a dictator (local or federal) mandate that all people wear masks whenever they step outside? No freaking way! That is tyranny. And that is what Joe Biden has suggested.

There is a bit of a caveat on the requirement for government buildings. We should be able to postpone court hearings for an informed rejection of wearing masks.

Indeed businesses should be able to decide whether they want to have masks on or whether everyone there should be naked. Too bad that the government and many landlords are either tricking or compelling businesses into requiring masks. This does create another way to trick businesses into paying fines. People can be hired to go into the store without masks and then the "evidence" can be used to impose a fine on that business.

[Ronson]

There is a bit of a caveat on the requirement for government buildings. We should be able to postpone court hearings for an informed rejection of wearing masks.

Indeed businesses should be able to decide whether they want to have masks on or whether everyone there should be naked. Too bad that the government and many landlords are either tricking or compelling businesses into requiring masks. This does create another way to trick businesses into paying fines. People can be hired to go into the store without masks and then the "evidence" can be used to impose a fine on that business.

There are barely any regulations at all in my corner of the Midwest. Restaurants are open (although tables are spaced further apart), and no stores that I am aware of require masks. The nearby Walmart doesn't, and half the people in there aren't wearing them. There is no stigma either way. I don't begrudge the non-masked people because it's hard to breathe through them, and the odds are pretty high they don't have covid and aren't contagious anyway.

And besides ... I doubt the numbers. I simply don't know a single person who has tested positive, much less died from covid. And the people I know don't know anyone in those categories either. But we all have had the flu, or know lots of people who have had the flu, and covid is supposedly more contagious? Something isn't adding up.

But it sure makes great fodder for Trump's detractors

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[Whateverman]

I prefer the science.

That's the thing: you don't. You don't prefer the science; you prefer the conspiracy theory nonsense, and fringe blogisphere. You prefer a tiny portion of the evidence over the vast majority.

Google "the science of masks and COVID-19", and look at the top 10 links. I just did, and they ALL say masks are an effective method of slowing the spread of the virus. Some even mention that they protect the people around the wearer better than the wearer him/herself. NONE of them say masks cause more harm than benefit.

Here, let me Google that for you.

That's the science you say you prefer.

[mikewhitney]

That's the thing: you don't. You don't prefer the science; you prefer the conspiracy theory nonsense, and fringe blogisphere. You prefer a tiny portion of the evidence over the vast majority.

Google "the science of masks and COVID-19", and look at the top 10 links. I just did, and they ALL say masks are an effective method of slowing the spread of the virus. Some even mention that they protect the people around the wearer better than the wearer him/herself. NONE of them say masks cause more harm than benefit.

Here, let me Google that for you.

That's the science you say you prefer.

Oh. Those are the studies you relied on. Haha. Dont' quit your day job.

[mikewhitney]

If there were not so much politics and destruction in the effort to promote masks ... if, instead, the effort was a simple (and pure and logical) recommendation to wear masks ... I would not be speaking against it. However, this all seems very political and manipulative to make us be scared of our own shadows. The COVID situation also created the backdrop to have riots (more often than not by white people) in response to the Floyd death. We need to get back to the old normal.

[Psychic Missile]

If there were not so much politics and destruction in the effort to promote masks ... if, instead, the effort was a simple (and pure and logical) recommendation to wear masks ... I would not be speaking against it. However, this all seems very political and manipulative to make us be scared of our own shadows. The COVID situation also created the backdrop to have riots (more often than not by white people) in response to the Floyd death. We need to get back to the old normal.

It is simple and pure and logical. People shed coronavirus when they're pre-symptomatic, there's no way to tell if someone is pre-symptomatic, asymptomatic, or healthy without testing to an impractical degree, and masks help prevent viral droplets from infecting people. The politics and destruction come into play when you have wealthy people who would rather see the working class put lives at risk than to lose a minor portion of their vast fortune, health organizations capitulating to these wealthy people to keep funding secure, a government that refuses to supply a safety net to the working class resulting in a hard choice between life and livelihood, and foreign countries that want us to self-inflict as much economic devastation as possible. You are the one being manipulated to be scared of the shadows of pseudoscience and authoritarianism. We cannot get back to the old normal until either the virus wreaks to its utmost potential or people see past the false narratives.

[Whateverman]

That's the thing: you don't. You don't prefer the science; you prefer the conspiracy theory nonsense, and fringe blogisphere. You prefer a tiny portion of the evidence over the vast majority.

Google "the science of masks and COVID-19", and look at the top 10 links. I just did, and they ALL say masks are an effective method of slowing the spread of the virus. Some even mention that they protect the people around the wearer better than the wearer him/herself. NONE of them say masks cause more harm than benefit.

Here, let me Google that for you.

That's the science you say you prefer.

Oh. Those are the studies you relied on. Haha. Dont' quit your day job.

Which studies did I rely on?

List 'em.

[mikewhitney]

It is simple and pure and logical. People shed coronavirus when they're pre-symptomatic, there's no way to tell if someone is pre-symptomatic, asymptomatic, or healthy without testing to an impractical degree, and masks help prevent viral droplets from infecting people. The politics and destruction come into play when you have wealthy people who would rather see the working class put lives at risk than to lose a minor portion of their vast fortune, health organizations capitulating to these wealthy people to keep funding secure, a government that refuses to supply a safety net to the working class resulting in a hard choice between life and livelihood, and foreign countries that want us to self-inflict as much economic devastation as possible. You are the one being manipulated to be scared of the shadows of pseudoscience and authoritarianism. We cannot get back to the old normal until either the virus wreaks to its utmost potential or people see past the false narratives.

I was not expecting satire here. It is science that reveals where "simple and pure and logical" do not match up with scientific evidence.

We are not going to have anything between the poverty level and the billionaire level if we keep up with this nonsense.

How do you come to the conclusion that this virus, which is not much more deadly than regular flu season, requires any more than the original 14 day quarantine they asked for in March?

Masks don't stop viruses from coming in or going out of your mouth. If you are deathly sick, you should not be walking around in thick crowds. If you have common sense, you don't need to make yourself look silly with a mask.

[mikewhitney]

Which studies did I rely on?

List 'em.

Those have all been rebutted by actual scientific studies.

[Psychic Missile]

I was not expecting satire here. It is science that reveals where "simple and pure and logical" do not match up with scientific evidence.

We are not going to have anything between the poverty level and the billionaire level if we keep up with this nonsense.

How do you come to the conclusion that this virus, which is not much more deadly than regular flu season, requires any more than the original 14 day quarantine they asked for in March?

Masks don't stop viruses from coming in or going out of your mouth. If you are deathly sick, you should not be walking around in thick crowds. If you have common sense, you don't need to make yourself look silly with a mask.

The CDC estimates 131,065 COVID-19 deaths to date and 79,400 deaths during the atypical (for the worse) 2017-2018 flu season, and that's in a favorable season, so you are wrong that it is not much more deadly. There have also been reports of those who have recovered from flu-like symptoms retaining health issues like exercise intolerance, and it's indeterminate if this is permanent. That's why an extended quarantine is needed.

Masks help contain infected respiratory droplets, especially when talking, coughing, or sneezing. People who are deathly sick are not liable to be out in public, the primary concern is pre-symptomatic people.

By the way, who is the judge you mentioned in the opening post? Where and how did you learn about him? "Judge Andrew Policano" shows zero Google search results.

[mikewhitney]

The CDC estimates 131,065 COVID-19 deaths to date and 79,400 deaths during the atypical (for the worse) 2017-2018 flu season, and that's in a favorable season, so you are wrong that it is not much more deadly. There have also been reports of those who have recovered from flu-like symptoms retaining health issues like exercise intolerance, and it's indeterminate if this is permanent. That's why an extended quarantine is needed.

Masks help contain infected respiratory droplets, especially when talking, coughing, or sneezing. People who are deathly sick are not liable to be out in public, the primary concern is pre-symptomatic people.

By the way, who is the judge you mentioned in the opening post? Where and how did you learn about him? "Judge Andrew Policano" shows zero Google search results.

The deaths have too often been attributed to covid-19 if the person died "with covid-19" Even with the numbers given, most of the high death rates were in a few locations (NJ, NYC, and maybe MD and DC). Some states had 10-20% more deaths attributed to covid-19 than were found in the 2018-19 season of flu and influenza.

Still no studies to show that asymptomatic people are a problem in society. But this idea certainly helps make people scared to go out in public. Is that what you desire for life?

The current statistics show that coronavirus-attributed deaths are way down. The Dallas County deaths always were below flu-related deaths of previous years. I give all this information that we may start thinking rationally about the world today, rather than just reacting in fear.

Sorry. I got the names mixed up in doing a search. He is Judge Andrew Napolitano -- a former superior court judge in New Jersey. He was on Fox News regarding the mask mandates.

[Mountain Man]

People shed coronavirus when they're pre-symptomatic, there's no way to tell if someone is pre-symptomatic, asymptomatic, or healthy without testing to an impractical degree, and masks help prevent viral droplets from infecting people.

The fact is, you have a negligible chance of catching the China flu from casual contact with a non-symptomatic person, and the overwhelming majority of people wearing masks in public are breaking every fundamental rule of mask usage and therefore are not doing themselves a bit of good anyway.

[Psychic Missile]

The deaths have too often been attributed to covid-19 if the person died "with covid-19" Even with the numbers given, most of the high death rates were in a few locations (NJ, NYC, and maybe MD and DC). Some states had 10-20% more deaths attributed to covid-19 than were found in the 2018-19 season of flu and influenza.

Still no studies to show that asymptomatic people are a problem in society. But this idea certainly helps make people scared to go out in public. Is that what you desire for life?

The current statistics show that coronavirus-attributed deaths are way down. The Dallas County deaths always were below flu-related deaths of previous years. I give all this information that we may start thinking rationally about the world today, rather than just reacting in fear.

Sorry. I got the names mixed up in doing a search. He is Judge Andrew Napolitano -- a former superior court judge in New Jersey. He was on Fox News regarding the mask mandates.

Population density doesn't matter. You said COVID-19 isn't much more deadly than the flu. The CDC says you're wrong. If you dispute that because of falsely-attributed deaths, then produce your own data results that are more reliable than the CDC's or don't compare them.

Asymptomatic people are irrelevant. I've been talking to you about pre-symptomatic people.

It is rational for parents to not want their children to have MIS-C or for young people to not want to have long-lasting health problems or for the elderly to not want to die. There is already plenty of blood on the hands of those who didn't take the virus seriously, and there will be plenty more if there is not great care taken to avoid exposure to those who have as of yet avoided it. Even if the chance is as minute as you claim, mask wearing is such a small price to pay to help keep others safe.

[Psychic Missile]

The fact is, you have a negligible chance of catching the China flu from casual contact with a non-symptomatic person, and the overwhelming majority of people wearing masks in public are breaking every fundamental rule of mask usage and therefore are not doing themselves a bit of good anyway.

Context is important. Are you outside? Are you indoors? What is the air quality like? How long are you in contact? Is the person coughing or sneezing? Is the person talking, singing, or eating? Is anyone wearing masks? How far apart are you? Situations can change during "causal contact" and mask use and social distancing can be all that stands between you and infection. If an infected person sneezes into your open mouth during a conversation, wouldn't you prefer to have worn a mask?

Are you saying that if poor practices are common and widespread when it comes to a certain tool, nobody should use that tool? Are you against gun ownership too?