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A Letter on Justice and Open Debate

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  • A Letter on Justice and Open Debate

    I heard about this on the morning news and checked it out. The letter is about the need for open debate and freedom of expression. The concern is that both the left and the right are smothering free debate to achieve their agenda.

    Link to Letter: https://harpers.org/a-letter-on-just...d-open-debate/

    I support the contents of the letter. In the big scope of the issue, my quibbles aren't worth expressing. What do you think?
    "For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6

    "Theology can be an intellectual entertainment." Metropolitan Anthony Bloom

  • #2
    Originally posted by Thoughtful Monk View Post
    I heard about this on the morning news and checked it out. The letter is about the need for open debate and freedom of expression. The concern is that both the left and the right are smothering free debate to achieve their agenda.

    Link to Letter: https://harpers.org/a-letter-on-just...d-open-debate/

    I support the contents of the letter. In the big scope of the issue, my quibbles aren't worth expressing. What do you think?
    That's an excellent letter. I agree with it on all counts, including the stifling of certain brands of conservative speech.

    ---

    There are lots of things we forum members do to stir up the corrosive kind of trouble in discussions here. We insult each other directly; we insult the groups our opponents belong to with insulting those opponents directly. We ask insulting questions and then pretend no insult/opinion was offered. We demand evidence/justification for opinions/ideas we don't like, and then we refuse to consider it when it's offered. We focus on the posts of people who belong to groups we dislike, and give a pass for the posts made by people on our own side of the fence.

    On some level, debate is always going to contain these things, but it's corrosive; it brings ire from people we'd otherwise share common ground with. We don't need the dialectic version of Kumbaya, but we do need to avoid going for low-hanging (rhetorical) fruit.

    Comment


    • #3
      Before anybody asks, no, that is not that John MacArthur.
      "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Thoughtful Monk View Post
        I heard about this on the morning news and checked it out. The letter is about the need for open debate and freedom of expression. The concern is that both the left and the right are smothering free debate to achieve their agenda.

        Link to Letter: https://harpers.org/a-letter-on-just...d-open-debate/

        I support the contents of the letter. In the big scope of the issue, my quibbles aren't worth expressing. What do you think?
        This letter does not work well for promoting openness and equality of speech. It already speaks against some hypothetical right-wing demagogues (not sure who fits this) rather than all people promoting riots. It speaks against people on the right forcing single voice for that, but all I have heard about is this effort to call anyone with a desire for freedom now being called a white supremacist and racist. Such terms cutoff free debate.

        I would expect a letter for open discussion and for resolution of differences (or finding of common desires of us all) to, at least, speak against violent people of any political viewpoint. I would hope that we can find more reasons for unification rather than division. It is kind of tough, because we have people here that are Christians and those who are against Christians. I sort of mean that it would be better for people not to be against Christians (or against atheists), at least anything beyond kind of exploratory dialogue. This is just to note the problem we can encounter at tweb.

        However, after denigrating half of the population, the letter does include (without polemic terminology) the broader community of educators, media, businesses and government. So they are implicitly laying blame on themselves (the co-signers) too.

        Maybe this letter can be revised before they publish it and balance things out a bit better.
        Last edited by mikewhitney; 07-08-2020, 04:26 PM.

        Comment


        • #5
          "Our cultural institutions are facing a moment of trial. Powerful protests for racial and social justice are leading to overdue demands for police reform, along with wider calls for greater equality and inclusion across our society, not least in higher education, journalism, philanthropy, and the arts. But this needed reckoning has also intensified a new set of moral attitudes and political commitments that tend to weaken our norms of open debate and toleration of differences in favor of ideological conformity."

          The quote is from the letter---Not sure I agree with the underlined...it is because there is a "new set" of attitudes that are emerging, that, there are as yet no defined "rules of engagement". ...and therefore there is no "ideological conformity" yet.

          "Donald Trump, who represents a real threat to democracy."---IMO, democracy was already threatened when it was forced at gunpoint by U.S. wars!!---and it has already failed when it privileged those with power and money over those without.

          "...an intolerance of opposing views, a vogue for public shaming and ostracism, and the tendency to dissolve complex policy issues in a blinding moral certainty. We uphold the value of robust and even caustic counter-speech from all quarters. But it is now all too common to hear calls for swift and severe retribution in response to perceived transgressions of speech and thought."

          As a Muslim---I saw during the Muhammed cartoon crises, how "public shaming" (Islamophobia) can be toxic and when misinformation and Islamphobia is left unchecked, can lead to genocide (Rohingya of Burma)---yet when such free-speech is dealt with accountability (boycots, protests, debates and sustained efforts to inform) it can create momentum for change.

          "More troubling still, institutional leaders, in a spirit of panicked damage control, are delivering hasty and disproportionate punishments instead of considered reforms. Editors are fired for running controversial pieces; books are withdrawn for alleged inauthenticity; journalists are barred from writing on certain topics; professors are investigated for quoting works of literature in class; a researcher is fired for circulating a peer-reviewed academic study; and the heads of organizations are ousted for what are sometimes just clumsy mistakes."

          therefore...in this "new climate" we may be figuring out what boundaries are appropriate and which are not---through trial and error---we cannot propose that the "old standard" must prevail. The internet age has brought new circumstances---such as algorithmic info overload, cyber echo chambers, misinformation flow and propaganda that abuse algorithms, bots and trolls....etc As we learn to deal with these new "frontiers" ---we must all take responsibility. We may not have defined professional misconduct yet or what responsibility such misconduct might entail---but doing something is still better than doing nothing...?....

          "We refuse any false choice between justice and freedom, which cannot exist without each other. As writers we need a culture that leaves us room for experimentation, risk taking, and even mistakes."
          Yes--freedom to make mistakes comes with the price of being held accountable for that mistake---that is how freedom and justice work together. When you make a mistake, apologize and reform or state your case and defend your actions....?...

          When ISIS/Daesh was using/misusing the internet for its propaganda, many called on Muslims to do something about it. It may have seemed unfair that the vast majority of Muslims who had nothing to do with ISIS/Daesh should be called on to do anything---but it was a good thing to re-asses what was toxic and how to rebuild in a way that corrected such toxic justifications. Had we (the world) insisted on calling all Buddhists to also do the same---would the Rohingya crises been avoided or its toxicity lessened?

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Thoughtful Monk View Post
            I heard about this on the morning news and checked it out. The letter is about the need for open debate and freedom of expression. The concern is that both the left and the right are smothering free debate to achieve their agenda.

            Link to Letter: https://harpers.org/a-letter-on-just...d-open-debate/

            I support the contents of the letter. In the big scope of the issue, my quibbles aren't worth expressing. What do you think?
            I fully endorse the sentiments of that letter. I have, with increasing alarm, observed the growth of fanaticism with regard to comments made on certain topics and that is a dangerous trend.
            "It ain't necessarily so
            The things that you're liable
            To read in the Bible
            It ain't necessarily so
            ."

            Sportin' Life
            Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by mikewhitney View Post
              This letter does not work well for promoting openness and equality of speech. It already speaks against some hypothetical right-wing demagogues (not sure who fits this) rather than all people promoting riots. It speaks against people on the right forcing single voice for that, but all I have heard about is this effort to call anyone with a desire for freedom now being called a white supremacist and racist. Such terms cutoff free debate.

              I would expect a letter for open discussion and for resolution of differences (or finding of common desires of us all) to, at least, speak against violent people of any political viewpoint. I would hope that we can find more reasons for unification rather than division. It is kind of tough, because we have people here that are Christians and those who are against Christians. I sort of mean that it would be better for people not to be against Christians (or against atheists), at least anything beyond kind of exploratory dialogue. This is just to note the problem we can encounter at tweb.

              However, after denigrating half of the population, the letter does include (without polemic terminology) the broader community of educators, media, businesses and government. So they are implicitly laying blame on themselves (the co-signers) too.

              Maybe this letter can be revised before they publish it and balance things out a bit better.
              The letter has already been published.

              However, the same degree of intolerant fanaticism may also be found among many within Christianity.

              We read about or see the same desire to suppress, ban, or censure any opinions or behaviours that are perceived as an affront to Christian living or that are in opposition to the "correct" Christian views held, or espoused by, various Christian groups and/or their leaders.
              "It ain't necessarily so
              The things that you're liable
              To read in the Bible
              It ain't necessarily so
              ."

              Sportin' Life
              Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Thoughtful Monk View Post
                I heard about this on the morning news and checked it out. The letter is about the need for open debate and freedom of expression. The concern is that both the left and the right are smothering free debate to achieve their agenda.

                Link to Letter: https://harpers.org/a-letter-on-just...d-open-debate/

                I support the contents of the letter. In the big scope of the issue, my quibbles aren't worth expressing. What do you think?
                Something tells me his words were meant only for liberals, warning them the cancel culture is knocking at their door. It's not a conservative cop who knocks.

                That being said, it reads as a liberal screed to me, blaming the right wing bogeyman for smothering debate. In fact, the level of liberal smothering is no better demonstrated by your liberal cancel culture. You've taken the smothering and honed it to a scapel, and you cut out the idiot you want to smother.

                I am old and remember when debating policy ideas was normal. It just doesn't happen anymore. I don't think it will ever happen again. Now it is merely gotcha and smear with the insult of the day.

                Liberals need to simply come to grips with the fact that rational debate about policy is out the window. A very large segment of the Democrat party are chopping at the root of this constitutional republic, too many calling for true socialist reform, if not outright Marxism. Strangely, the liberal mantra the conservatives are racists is blase, we are beyond that, it is now attacks at the foundation.

                Truly, this conservative is looking at you liberals, waiting for you to cut the poison of blm, Cortez and Bernie, and insufferable race baiting from your ranks, so maybe we can have rational debate.

                If you refuse, then you will be pushed out of the way, and the Democrat party will be entirely run by socialists and communists. In many ways I think the writer doesn't grasp what is going on.

                Comment


                • #9
                  The first paragraph reads like someone who has no idea at all how 'conservatives' see the world and the past three years or so. Somehow all the bad things have been the fault of the political right. 'Inclusion' for the writer doesn't mean 'acceptance of people who think / believe differently to you'. I think I read somewhere that some of the signatories have been involved in campaigns to cancel people in the past...

                  Overall my impression is of leftists wanting to 'return to peaceful communication and debate' now that they have purged many of the people who disagree with and challenge their ideas and actions. Like the kid at school who loves to play rough, has hurt a bunch of kids, and only now - after himself getting roughed up a couple of times - suggests that everyone should play nicely. Good luck with that. By not policing their own extremists, the left has enabled the rise of some extreme right elements. Those people aren't going to play nicely, because that's what the conservatives have done for years, and look where we are now.
                  ...>>> Witty remark or snarky quote of another poster goes here <<<...

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by MaxVel View Post
                    Those people aren't going to play nicely, because that's what the conservatives have done for years, and look where we are now.
                    Are you saying that conservative played nice for years?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Whateverman View Post
                      Are you saying that conservative played nice for years?
                      Lawrence Douglas observed in his mongraph "Will He Go?" that "The recent Republican credo can be summarized thus: Elections—and governmental processes generally—are to be respected only when we prevail.".
                      "It ain't necessarily so
                      The things that you're liable
                      To read in the Bible
                      It ain't necessarily so
                      ."

                      Sportin' Life
                      Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by MaxVel
                        The first paragraph reads like someone who has no idea at all how 'conservatives' see the world and the past three years or so.
                        Yes, well....

                        Originally posted by Whateverman
                        Are you saying that conservative played nice for years?
                        I'm saying that that's how some people see it. True or not (I think mostly true), their perception is going to inform their actions going forward.



                        Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria
                        Lawrence Douglas observed in his mongraph "Will He Go?" that "The recent Republican credo can be summarized thus: Elections—and governmental processes generally—are to be respected only when we prevail."
                        Uh-huh.
                        ...>>> Witty remark or snarky quote of another poster goes here <<<...

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I agree the opening paragraph was biased. I thought the letter redeemed itself as it progressed which is why I supported it.
                          "For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6

                          "Theology can be an intellectual entertainment." Metropolitan Anthony Bloom

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Thoughtful Monk View Post
                            I agree the opening paragraph was biased. I thought the letter redeemed itself as it progressed which is why I supported it.
                            I felt the same way.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Maranatha View Post
                              Something tells me his words were meant only for liberals, warning them the cancel culture is knocking at their door. It's not a conservative cop who knocks.

                              That being said, it reads as a liberal screed to me, blaming the right wing bogeyman for smothering debate. In fact, the level of liberal smothering is no better demonstrated by your liberal cancel culture. You've taken the smothering and honed it to a scapel, and you cut out the idiot you want to smother.
                              You do realize the letter is currently being crushed on the left to the point where some signatories are being pressured to retract it, right? It's widely being interpreted as anti-transgender in intention.
                              "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

                              Comment

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