Originally posted by JimL
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Forum Rules: Here
Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!
Forum Rules: Here
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Time, Omniscience and Free Will
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Originally posted by Stoic View PostAs I said, it's basically a matter of how you define free will. It's possible to define free will in such a way that it is incompatible with determinism, in which case I wonder if it matters whether we have free will. Or you can define free will such that it matters whether we have it, in which case I wonder why anyone thinks we don't have it, even if the universe is deterministic.
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Originally posted by JimL View PostBut how are you defining free will in a deterministic universe? I mean just calling it free will doesn't make it free will, how you define it has to make sense.
Personally, it doesn't really matter to me how it's defined. You can even define it as "that which would not exist if the universe was deterministic." Then I would agree that free will can't exist if the universe is deterministic. But I would add, "So what?"
In what way would my life be different if I was convinced that the world is deterministic, and free will does not exist? As far as I can tell, it would make no difference.
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Originally posted by JimL View PostBut how are you defining free will in a deterministic universe? I mean just calling it free will doesn't make it free will, how you define it has to make sense.
There are different types of 'Determinism.' You may be referring to what I call it Hard Philosophical Determinism described as follows:
I prefer Karl Poppers view of determinism:
Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
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Originally posted by Stoic View Post
In what way would my life be different if I was convinced that the world is deterministic, and free will does not exist? As far as I can tell, it would make no difference.“He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.
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Originally posted by Tassman View PostI agree. We have the illusion of free-will. We act as though it was free and make our decisions accordingly.
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Originally posted by Stoic View PostWell, we have whatever is necessary in order for us to consider the consequences of our decisions, and choose accordingly. I don't think that is libertarian free will, and I don't think it is an illusion. Until someone comes up with a suitable name for it, I'll think of it as free will, or perhaps freedom (ala Daniel Dennett in Freedom Evolves).“He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.
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Originally posted by Tassman View PostIt is in practical terms ‘free will’
- we feel and act as though we were free. But in actuality I think our decisions are largely informed by our genetic make-up, social and environmental influences plus sub-conscious memories dating from our formative years.
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostI believe our physical existence is deterministic by Karl Popper's understanding of 'Determinism,' which is compatable with 'Compatablism.'
There are different types of 'Determinism.' You may be referring to what I call it Hard Philosophical Determinism described as follows:
I prefer Karl Poppers view of determinism:
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Originally posted by JimL View PostAs I read the above I'm not seeing Popper define free will or how it is compatible with determinism. He seems to me to be saying that we don't necessarily have an exact understanding of what determinism entails, and that perhaps free will is compatible with a universe that is otherwise determined by physical laws. Perhaps you could clear that up for me.
Also, read the reference I gave in the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy and realize there are a number of different views and definitions of 'Determinism,' the existence nor non-existence of Free Will is not determined be 'Determinism.'
Notice in the first definition of Determinism it stated that, "Some philosophers have taken determinism to imply that individual human beings have no free will and cannot be held morally responsible for their actions."Last edited by shunyadragon; 08-30-2020, 04:41 PM.Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostDo not need to clear anything up. Popper, of course, does not consider the nature of our will as either free nor rigidly determined based on his definition of 'Determinism,' neither do I. The question of the existence of and the degree of free will an open questionnot answered by 'Determinism.'. If you want to know more read his book.
Also, read the reference I gave in the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy and realize there are a number of different views and definitions of 'Determinism,' the existence nor non-existence of Free Will is not determined be 'Determinism.'
Notice in the first definition of Determinism it stated that, "Some philosophers have taken determinism to imply that individual human beings have no free will and cannot be held morally responsible for their actions."
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Originally posted by JimL View PostThe bolded above is all I'm asking about. What is Popper's definition of determinism with respect to the universe, and how does free will fit within that definition?
Based on the references provided, only some philosophers and scientist ahare ht e view of 'Determinism and the degree and nature of human will.
Again, if you want to know more about the question read the book.
Your questions are answered in the references provided. The following all encompasing definition of 'Determinism' does not make any mention of the question of Free Will.
Last edited by shunyadragon; 08-30-2020, 05:28 PM.Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostI already gave the reference where Popper describes his view of determinism with respect ot our physical existence, and only related to scientific knowledge that is determined by the predictability and consitencey of our physicla existence by scientific methods and it is my position, and he does not consider the question of 'Free Will to be determined by Determinism. The limits of Determinism is described in the reference. As pere the reference provided there are different views of Determiniam and the relationship to human will.
Based on the references provided, only some philosophers and scientist ahare ht e view of 'Determinism and the degree and nature of human will.
Again, if you want to know more about the question read the book.
Your questions are answered in the references provided. The following all encompasing definition of 'Determinism' does not make any mention of the question of Free Will.
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Originally posted by JimL View PostThe bolded above is all I'm asking about. What is Popper's definition of determinism with respect to the universe,
and how does free will fit within that definition?
Puzzle; have you ever tried to read Karl Popper's writings to understand his view on determinism? I hve his books, but cannote cite him from my books. I will look for references to further describe his philosophy, but it is apparent you are not willing to do your homework.Last edited by shunyadragon; 09-01-2020, 07:10 AM.Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
Comment
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostAlready described that in the previous reference, and provided the over all definition of 'Determinism,' which considers determinism in terms Nataural Laws with no metion of human will. My source the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy is the highest academic standard availble, and apparently you refuse to read it and respond. Popper considers determinism in terms of the consistency and predictability of Natural Laws in the falsifiability of theories and hypothesis.
As cited Popper does not consider human will can be defined nor fit within his definition of Determinism, though in his writings he describes the indeterminacy of the limits of scientific falsifiable theories and hypothesis from the human perspective, which never can be proven, but only falsifiable. Theories and hypothesis are to a certain extent indeterminate and cannot be proven, because of the elimits of the human perspective. He acknowledges the implications of his definition of determinism concerning the nature of human will and acknowledges the possibility of compatibilism.
Puzzle; have you ever tried to read Karl Popper's writings to understand his view on determinism? I hve his books, but cannote cite him from my books. I will look for references to further describe his philosophy, but it is apparent you are not willing to do your homework.
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