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Conservative values/principles

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
    In trying to define what somebody is - like "conservative" - we can get so granular that we can't agree on a specific point.

    So, let's give this a start, and see if other conservatives agree with these points.


    1. Transcendent Order

    First, conservatives generally believe that there exists a transcendent moral order, to which we ought to try to conform the ways of society. A divine tactic, however dimly descried, is at work in human society. Such convictions may take the form of belief in “natural law” or may assume some other expression; but with few exceptions conservatives recognize the need for enduring moral authority. This conviction contrasts strongly with the liberals’ utilitarian view of the state (most consistently expressed by Bentham’s disciples), and with the radicals’ detestation of theological postulates.

    2. Social Continuity


    Second, conservatives uphold the principle of social continuity. They prefer the devil they know to the devil they don’t know. Order and justice and freedom, they believe, are the artificial products of a long and painful social experience, the results of centuries of trial and reflection and sacrifice. Thus the body social is a kind of spiritual corporation, comparable to the church; it may even be called a community of souls. Human society is no machine, to be treated mechanically. The continuity, the lifeblood, of a society must not be interrupted. Burke’s reminder of the social necessity for prudent change is in the minds of conservatives. But necessary change, they argue, ought to be gradual and discriminatory, never “unfixing old interests at once.” Revolution slices through the arteries of a culture, a cure that kills.

    3. Prescription

    Third, conservatives believe in what may be called the principle of prescription. “The wisdom of our ancestors” is one of the more important phrases in the writings of Burke; presumably Burke derived it from Richard Hooker. Conservatives sense that modern men and women are dwarfs on the shoulders of giants, able to see farther than their ancestors only because of the great stature of those who have preceded us in time. Therefore conservatives very frequently emphasize the importance of “prescription”—that is, of things established by immemorial usage, so “that the mind of man runneth not to the contrary.” There exist rights of which the chief sanction is their antiquity—including rights in property, often. Similarly, our morals are prescriptive in great part. Conservatives argue that we are unlikely, we moderns, to make any brave new discoveries in morals or politics or taste. It is perilous to weigh every passing issue on the basis of private judgment and private rationality. “The individual is foolish, but the species is wise,” Burke declared. In politics we do well to abide by precedent and precept and even prejudice, for “the great mysterious incorporation of the human race” has acquired habits, customs, and conventions of remote origin which are woven into the fabric of our social being; the innovator, in Santayana’s phrase, never knows how near to the taproot of the tree he is hacking.

    4. Prudence


    Fourth, conservatives are guided by their principle of prudence. Burke agrees with Plato that in the statesman, prudence is chief among virtues. Any public measure ought to be judged by its probable long-run consequences, not merely by temporary advantage or popularity. Liberals and radicals, the conservative holds, are imprudent: for they dash at their objectives without giving much heed to the risk of new abuses worse than the evils they hope to sweep away. Human society being complex, remedies cannot be simple if they are to be effective. The conservative declares that he acts only after sufficient reflection, having weighed the consequences. Sudden and slashing reforms are perilous as sudden and slashing surgery. The march of providence is slow; it is the devil who always hurries.

    5. Variety


    Fifth, conservatives pay attention to the principle of variety. They feel affection for the proliferating intricacy of long-established social institutions and modes of life, as distinguished from the narrowing uniformity and deadening egalitarianism of radical systems. For the preservation of a healthy diversity in any civilization, there must survive orders and classes, differences in material condition, and many sorts of inequality. The only true forms of equality are equality in the Last Judgment and equality before a just court of law; all other attempts at leveling lead, at best, to social stagnation. Society longs for honest and able leadership; and if natural and institutional differences among people are destroyed, presently some tyrant or host of squalid oligarchs will create new forms of inequality. Similarly, conservatives uphold the institution of private property as productive of human variety: without private property, liberty is reduced and culture is impoverished.

    6. Imperfection


    Sixth, conservatives are chastened by their principle of imperfectibility. Human nature suffers irremediably from certain faults, the conservatives know. Man being imperfect, no perfect social order ever can be created. Because of human restlessness, mankind would grow rebellious under any utopian domination, and would break out once more in violent discontent—or else expire of boredom. To aim for utopia is to end in disaster, the conservative says: we are not made for perfect things. All that we reasonably can expect is a tolerably ordered, just, and free society, in which some evils, maladjustments, and suffering continue to lurk. By proper attention to prudent reform, we may preserve and improve this tolerable order. But if the old institutional and moral safeguards of a nation are forgotten, then the anarchic impulses in man break loose: “the ceremony of innocence is drowned.”
    Is patriotism related to any of these?

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by whag View Post
      Is patriotism related to any of these?
      Wow.... is the color blue related to roller skates?

      I think "Patriotism" is a whole 'nuther discussion. If it's defined as "love and devotion to one's country", that would depend on what one thought their country should be like.

      Seriously, I think that would be a whole 'nuther thread.
      The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by seanD View Post
        Seer never insulted you once.
        I never claimed otherwise.

        Originally posted by seanD View Post
        He just showed you specifically where you're wrong.
        That never happened. He merely expressed an opinion, which doesn't in any way show that I said something wrong.

        Originally posted by seanD View Post
        The left hates [...]
        This thread is about conservative traits/characteristics. Go whine about liberals in your own thread

        Comment


        • #19
          Conservative values are a spectrum of values.
          Under life, liberty and happiness. Among other values.

          Last edited by 37818; 07-11-2020, 07:48 PM.
          . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

          . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

          Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by whag View Post
            Is patriotism related to any of these?
            I would go with somewhere in Social Continuity. Celebrate the country that makes it possible.
            "For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6

            "Theology can be an intellectual entertainment." Metropolitan Anthony Bloom

            Comment


            • #21
              Conervatism is not forgetting true history.

              . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

              . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

              Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

              Comment


              • #22
                My broad, simplistic understanding of conservatism vs liberalism is that conservatives tend to idealize the past or the "status quo" and liberals tend to idealize the future. In a healthy society both perspectives are necessary, but either can go too far when they stop listening to the other side. And in the current debates, liberals have ventured far from valuing freedom and free exchange of ideas and are firmly pushing toward tyranny.

                Comment


                • #23
                  I'm reminded of Chesterton who refused to call himself conservative or progressive.

                  Source: G.K Chesterton

                  The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected. Even when the revolutionist might himself repent of his revolution, the traditionalist is already defending it as part of his tradition. Thus we have two great types -- the advanced person who rushes us into ruin, and the retrospective person who admires the ruins. He admires them especially by moonlight, not to say moonshine. Each new blunder of the progressive or prig becomes instantly a legend of immemorial antiquity for the snob. This is called the balance, or mutual check, in our Constitution.

                  © Copyright Original Source

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                    I'm reminded of Chesterton who refused to call himself conservative or progressive.

                    Source: G.K Chesterton

                    The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected. Even when the revolutionist might himself repent of his revolution, the traditionalist is already defending it as part of his tradition. Thus we have two great types -- the advanced person who rushes us into ruin, and the retrospective person who admires the ruins. He admires them especially by moonlight, not to say moonshine. Each new blunder of the progressive or prig becomes instantly a legend of immemorial antiquity for the snob. This is called the balance, or mutual check, in our Constitution.

                    © Copyright Original Source

                    This should make conservatives and progressives stop taking pride in their labels and reconsider their name calling. Both are part of the same problem and don’t even realize it.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by LeaC View Post
                      My broad, simplistic understanding of conservatism vs liberalism is that conservatives tend to idealize the past or the "status quo" and liberals tend to idealize the future. In a healthy society both perspectives are necessary, but either can go too far when they stop listening to the other side. And in the current debates, liberals have ventured far from valuing freedom and free exchange of ideas and are firmly pushing toward tyranny.
                      Every administration demonizes the other as “tyrants.” Today’s isolationists were yesterday’s supporters of the Iraq invasion. Yesterday’s peaceniks were okay with sending predator drones to Libya.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                        Wow.... is the color blue related to roller skates?

                        I think "Patriotism" is a whole 'nuther discussion. If it's defined as "love and devotion to one's country", that would depend on what one thought their country should be like.

                        Seriously, I think that would be a whole 'nuther thread.
                        Patriotism is mostly a conservative trait, just as prone to virtue signaling as any liberal “value.” It wasn’t an unrelated topic and isn’t off topic to discuss why conservatives value it typically more than liberals.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by whag View Post
                          Patriotism is mostly a conservative trait, just as prone to virtue signaling as any liberal “value.” It wasn’t an unrelated topic and isn’t off topic to discuss why conservatives value it typically more than liberals.
                          Yes sir, I thought about that some more. Since conservatives resist radical change, we tend to be proud of what we have. Especially in these days, we're seeing conservatives wanting to keep our police departments, law and order, the founding principles of our country.... we're proud of America as the greatest nation on the face of the earth.

                          Liberals, however, seem to want to morph into Venezuela or Europe or some other country or 'vision'.
                          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by seanD View Post
                            Seer never insulted you once. He just showed you specifically where you're wrong. The left hates free speech when they disagree with it and this has been abundantly demonstrated. But instead of a factual rebuttal, you omit that part of his post (like the slimy dishonest way you always do), hand wave what he said and just pull OP rank over him.
                            But when you and MM do it - it's just because you are trying to focus on the subject at hand...?
                            The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                            I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                              I'm reminded of Chesterton who refused to call himself conservative or progressive.

                              Source: G.K Chesterton

                              The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected. Even when the revolutionist might himself repent of his revolution, the traditionalist is already defending it as part of his tradition. Thus we have two great types -- the advanced person who rushes us into ruin, and the retrospective person who admires the ruins. He admires them especially by moonlight, not to say moonshine. Each new blunder of the progressive or prig becomes instantly a legend of immemorial antiquity for the snob. This is called the balance, or mutual check, in our Constitution.

                              © Copyright Original Source

                              I love it...
                              The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                              I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                                Yes sir, I thought about that some more. Since conservatives resist radical change, we tend to be proud of what we have. Especially in these days, we're seeing conservatives wanting to keep our police departments, law and order, the founding principles of our country.... we're proud of America as the greatest nation on the face of the earth.

                                Liberals, however, seem to want to morph into Venezuela or Europe or some other country or 'vision'.
                                There are several problems with the emphasized part. First - we really aren't anymore, and I'm not sure we ever were. Don't get me wrong - we've had some amazing moments in history, and done some amazing things. But this level of pride is, in my experience, largely blind to the negative aspects of this country. What we are unwilling to examine because it might somehow require us to revise this "greatest nation on the face of the earth" view we will never be able to adjust/correct. Second, it is an amazingly arrogant view. It is the equivalent of Trump's self-aggrandizement on a national scale. I think our nation could use a bit more humility, and willingness to recognize it's flaws as well as its strengths. We are quick to tout the latter and slow to embrace the former. Finally, it is a view the rest of the world is no longer tolerant of. Despite all the of the recent resurgence of "nationalism," the fact is we are a nation within a global context, and globalism is a growing force. There is no reversing this reality. The moment we bound the world together with the telegraph, and then the telephone, and then high-speed international travel, and most recently with the Internet, the impact of one nation on another and on the whole was magnified. We can respond to that reality - and adjust our stance accordingly, or we can huddle in our nationalistic shells and the world will pass us by. What happens on the other side of the world can now impact us quickly and with significant effect. We need only look to the coronavirus to see that force in action.
                                The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                                I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                                Comment

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