Conservative values/principles

[rogue06]

Where have you seen recent antisemitic comments since his 06 apology? Be specific please.

This is about me, isn't it?

[Cow Poke]

This is about me, isn't it?

[seanD]

Your opinion is duly noted. I disagree with your assessment and find the arguments you and Seer have put forward to be lacking - for the reasons I have already cited.



You seem to think these two possibilities are mutually exclusive. That is a flawed premise.



What does this have to do with systemic racism?



Again - not mutually exclusive. And you should try having a conversation with these folks. Many of them report exactly what I (and BLM) have been saying. The one black Senator in the Republican party has been quite vocal about how he is treated even within the capital building, and how it differs from how his colleagues are treated.



And yet is is continually shown to be true - both anecdotally and with solid data. Turning a blind eye to it doesn't make it go away.



The hand-wave meme is truly old and tired - but I recognize why ya'll feel a need to perpetuate it. After all, its easier than actually tackling the arguments. It's ironic, actually. What the hyperbole reflects does not change that it is hyperbole and, almost by definition, untrue. As for division - the division is already there. Just because people don't want to hear about the reality of systemic/implicit racism doesn't mean it should not be highlighted and challenged. And wherever it is found, it should be rooted out.

Turning your back on the facts, Sean, doesn't make them go away. Everywhere we turn we see evidence of systemic racism. We saw it in AirBnB. We saw it in Uber and Lyft. We see it in the sentencing data for criminal offenses. We've seen it in how resumes are handled/processed. We get a constant stream of anecdotal evidence from the black community about what life is like as a black person. There are piles and piles of data pointing to the existence of this reality. And it simply makes common sense. We are only a couple generations away from the civil rights era, only a few more from Jim Crow, and just a few more from the Civil War. Before that stretches an almost 400 year history of black slavery in the U.S. Can anyone seriously believe that the effects of over 500 years of racism embedded in everything from our Constitution to our economic practices and our daily habits is going to be erased in a handful of decades?

Taking a stand against it and insisting on change is the ethical thing to do. It is why I support BLM and actively participate in their work.

What solid data is that? Show it. Be specific. You were just shown the data about blacks and violent crime. Then, after you were corrected about consolidating nonviolent crime with violent crime, you then tried to blame that on poverty. I also described to you from my own experience (which is current to this day) that the issue is within the black community and is a self-infliction. Where's your anecdotal evidence showing where I'm wrong. You described a situation involving your son which may or mat not have been an incident of racism. Even if it was, that only proves you have racist neighbors. Systemic racism is not what an incident like that makes.

[Sparko]

I don't think that crime has to do with poverty either. I think it has more to do with family life and location. There is less crime among poor people both black and white in rural areas and where the nuclear family remains intact. More crime in inner cities among both black and whites, in slums, and places where gangs are, and in families where a father is not present.

[seer]

...and in families where a father is not present.

Bingo...

[Cow Poke]

I don't think that crime has to do with poverty either.

I think it can be a factor, but I think it's more about the heart.

I think it has more to do with family life and location. There is less crime among poor people both black and white in rural areas and where the nuclear family remains intact.

And the nuclear family has been under attack major bigtime.

More crime in inner cities among both black and whites, in slums, and places where gangs are, and in families where a father is not present.

Yeah!

[Sparko]

I think it can be a factor, but I think it's more about the heart.

Yes. The biggest causes of crime are greed (money, things, power) and anger.

[carpedm9587]

Most crime, including violent crime, is intraracial rather than interracial. How would Jim Crow have affected that?

I don't know if your claim is true, but if it is - it wouldn't. However, during the Jim Crow era, most black people had the same relationship to law enforcement that modern day undocumented immigrants: keep away from them as much as possible. I have to believe a significant amount of the intraracial crime would never have been reported.

In fact, I'll posit that the Democrats who supported Jim Crow laws would be quite pleased if blacks were killing each other at the rates we see today. Not only would they not lift a finger to stop it they would likely cheer it on.

I would agree - but with a slight change: it wasn't merely Democrats supporting Jim Crow laws. It was members of both parties in mostly the southern states. Indeed, when the Democrats made a shift to supporting civil rights, the conservative, more segregationist members of the party abandoned the party and moved to the Republican party, setting the stage for Nixon's "southern strategy" and the solid shift of the south to the Republican party. Since then - if there is a move to explore how rights need to be extended to the disenfranchised, you will usually find the Republicans standing against it and the Democrats standing for it.

Your answer makes about as much sense as AOC's claim that violent crime is spiking because the economy is forcing people to shoplift bread to feed their families. IOW, none whatsoever.

I have no idea what AOC said. Doesn't seem to be relevant. But your opinion is duly noted.

[Cow Poke]

Yes. The biggest causes of crime are greed (money, things, power) and anger.

You might be amazed, however, how many shoplifters I arrested who EASILY had the money on their person to pay for what they stole.

There's the "thrill" of the crime, as well.

[carpedm9587]

But that was after your initial claim that I debunked.

You do like to claim the "presumptive win," Seer. You haven't debunked squat. If you had, my views would change accordingly.

Yep you finally got there! I specifically said it was not about skin color.

And yet you continually make racist statements like, "black people are more violent."

I gave you the stats. You just hand wave. And I'm not arguing that there is never racism by police, but that systemic police racism is a lie. For instance last year about 10 unarmed black men were killed by police, twice as many whites were killed. Yes that is a higher percentage for blacks, but the higher crime rates more than account for that.

You have yet to respond to the data I gave you, Seer. You are busily waving the flag of comparative stats about how many get arrested and how many crimes are committed without addressing the USSC findings.

In the WSJ link you can read most of the first paragraph, and see the author's name. It is the same article and the piece and the referenced studies undermines your false claim of systemic police racism.

I can't examine references you don't provide, Seer.

Nonsense, you can believe what you want - you have no argument for systemic police racism...

Ignoring the data doesn't make it go away...

What are you talking about? They only had one year where they included past offences, but never included non-violent offences. Things like drug trafficking, thief, larceny, etc.. were never included and certainly would be things taken into consideration.

Read it again - carefully...

So use your study where they never controlled for non-violent criminal history.

Read it again - carefully...

Liberal western democracies. Like for like.

Why would this issue have to be limited to "democracies?" Meanwhile, let's look at the list in order of violent crime from worst to best:

El Salvador: presidential representative democracy
Jamaica: Parliamentary democracy
Honduras: presidential representative democratic republic
Belize: constitutional monarchy and parliament (democracy is based on the Westminster model, part of the commonwealth of nations)
South Africa: (technically an eastern country) - parliamentary representative democratic republic
Lesotho: parliamentary representative democratic constitutional monarchy
Brazil: federal presidential constitutional republic, based on a representative democracy

I could continue...but I think you might see the problem.

[carpedm9587]

Where have you seen recent antisemitic comments since his 06 apology? Be specific please.

He was just accused of yet another antisemitic tirade by Winona Ryder. He denies it, of course. Sorry - but his denial rings hollow.

[carpedm9587]

What solid data is that? Show it. Be specific.

For the justice system, the evidence I cited is about the difference in how black and white people are sentenced. There is significantly more, though there are multiple new initiatives to gather this data to justify new initiatives to combat police racism. Some of the more recent work is described here. A few specifics include that black people are 2.5 times as likely to be killed by police as white people. Black people are twice as likely to be unarmed when fatally shot as white people. White officers are statistically more likely to draw their gun than black officers, and do so predominantly in black neighborhoods. In one study, white officers actually fired their guns at five times the rate o black officers, when visiting the same neighborhoods!.

And then, once arrested, black perpetrators will experience significantly harsher sentencing and significantly lesser "deals" than white perpetrators arrested for a similar crime.

You were just shown the data about blacks and violent crime.

None of which addressed any of the points I've made.

Then, after you were corrected about consolidating nonviolent crime with violent crime, you then tried to blame that on poverty.

Crime is indeed indexed to poverty (and other factors), not skin color. The data about this is pretty widely available. Here is one example.

I also described to you from my own experience (which is current to this day) that the issue is within the black community and is a self-infliction.

You cannot defend a statistical claim with anecdotal evidence. It is a logical error. It is akin to saying, "I have experienced that my neighbors are inconsiderate about when they mow their lawns, ergo people in general are inconsiderate about mowing their lawns." Presumably, you can see the problem...?

Where's your anecdotal evidence showing where I'm wrong.

I have no doubt that your experience is what you describe it to be. From this I know that Sean's experience is that in his own community, violence is related to cultural influence in that community.

You described a situation involving your son which may or mat not have been an incident of racism.

Interesting - I made the same response to my wife when it happened. She observed that my son's white cousins had been playing with the same toys under the same tree the previous two days. They too were visitors to the house, so unknown to the neighbors. Then, when my son goes out, the cops show up. An 8-year old boy. Still, my inclination was to give the people the benefit of the doubt. Maybe they hadn't seen the previous boys. Maybe they had been away and just came home. Too many unknowns. However, when it happened three more times in the next 3 years, and the other families in our adoption support group reported the same incidents with their black children, I began to accept that she was probably right. One such event is an anomaly. Several dozen is a pattern. I still cannot "prove" any single one of the was racism. But the pattern of all of them is compelling.

Even if it was, that only proves you have racist neighbors. Systemic racism is not what an incident like that makes.

Agreed. What suggests the systemic nature of the racism is the widespread reports of those things, not only from my adoption support group, but from other families and from black people across the nation. One story is an anecdote. A single data point. Hundreds and thousands of them is a body of statistical evidence.

[carpedm9587]

I don't think that crime has to do with poverty either. I think it has more to do with family life and location. There is less crime among poor people both black and white in rural areas and where the nuclear family remains intact. More crime in inner cities among both black and whites, in slums, and places where gangs are, and in families where a father is not present.

All of these are inter-related - and all are factors. However, the data about the correlation between poverty and crime is pretty definitive, and replicated in pretty much every city and state for which data has been gathered across the U.S. Ignoring it may serve a purpose for you - but it doesn't make sense to ignore evidence just because it does not fit your narrative. It makes more sense to adjust the narrative.

[seer]

You do like to claim the "presumptive win," Seer. You haven't debunked squat. If you had, my views would change accordingly.

Sorry Carp, I don't believe you would change your views no matter the argument.

And yet you continually make racist statements like, "black people are more violent."

OK, so if the purple people being 13% of the population committed 51% of the murders. The green people being 70% of the population commit 45% of the murders. Wouldn't you conclude that percentage wise the purple people were more violent? If not why not?

You have yet to respond to the data I gave you, Seer. You are busily waving the flag of comparative stats about how many get arrested and how many crimes are committed without addressing the USSC findings.

Carp how can I speak to length of incarnation rates when your study did not control for differing non-violent criminal history, and only compares one year of violent criminal history?

I can't examine references you don't provide, Seer.



Ignoring the data doesn't make it go away...

The captured article, here you go: http://archive.is/OXbjA

In 2019 police officers fatally shot 1,004 people, most of whom were armed or otherwise dangerous. African-Americans were about a quarter of those killed by cops last year (235), a ratio that has remained stable since 2015. That share of black victims is less than what the black crime rate would predict, since police shootings are a function of how often officers encounter armed and violent suspects. In 2018, the latest year for which such data have been published, African-Americans made up 53% of known homicide offenders in the U.S. and commit about 60% of robberies, though they are 13% of the population..

The latest in a series of studies undercutting the claim of systemic police bias was published in August 2019 in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.

A 2015 Justice Department analysis of the Philadelphia Police Department found that white police officers were less likely than black or Hispanic officers to shoot unarmed black suspects. Research by Harvard economist Roland G. Fryer Jr. also found no evidence of racial discrimination in shootings. Any evidence to the contrary fails to take into account crime rates and civilian behavior before and during interactions with police.

Tell me exactly what you disagree with.

[seer]

He was just accused of yet another antisemitic tirade by Winona Ryder. He denies it, of course. Sorry - but his denial rings hollow.

OK I changed my Avatar just for you!