Conservative values/principles

[carpedm9587]

Many times these "local chapters" are made up of well meaning people who have no idea what the agenda of BLM (the global organization) is.

While a small fraction of people have "acted out" inappropriately and used the BLM name in so doing, the movement itself largely disavows them and has nothing to do with those actions.[/quote]

What's your source for "the movement" disavowing the "acting out"?

Check their website, CP. There is also a good review of the politics within the organization here. Then there are these:

https://ksltv.com/438597/black-lives-matter-utah/
https://www.13newsnow.com/article/ne...8-d4b442f60113

And I have witnessed it with the local leaders here. Do I think there are NO people in BLM that would do (or DO do) violence? Of course not. But then there are Republicans who will do violence, and Christians who will do violence, and Democrats who will do violence. I do not discard an entire movement/group because some bad people claim allegiance and pervert the invent.

There are also a significant number of instances where peaceful protested were disrupted by far-right activists who injected themselves into the protests specifically to foment violence.

Condescending attitude detected and dismissed.

It wasn't intended to be condescending in the least. Of all the people here, you have continuously struck me as someone who might be willing to set aside their preconceptions and the drum beat of the right and look into matters for yourself. MY suggestion was genuine. Whether or not you take me up on it is entirely up to you.

Actually, the material I got WAS from their website, which has fairly recently been "sanitized of the dark side of the revolution".

CP, I have been on the BLM website regularly for the past several years. I have noted no substantive changes in that time period. Their beliefs have always read more or less as they do now - except for a bit of wordsmithing here or there.

I have to admit, I often find it uncomfortable working with these very angry black (mostly young) people. As a white man, I can only begin to imagine what they are experiencing and feeling. My whiteness is a invisible thing to me. I don't spend much time each day aware of my whiteness. But these people are reminded of their blackness every day of their lives, usually multiple times and usually in negative ways. As I listen to them, I gain some shadow of a perspective on what "white privilege" is all about, and how I truly soak in it daily with little awareness of that fact.

And yes, I had the audacity to use a "trigger word" that will likely invoke a reaction from the usual quarters here. But the phenomenon of white privilege is real. It is not absolute - it is not a fixed thing for every person. But I have seen too many instances and heard of too many others to dismiss it as a reality. These young people want nothing more than a world in which they can engage on a level playing field with everyone else. That does not exist today - not in the U.S. This "greatest nation on earth" still has a long way to go before it sees and engages all of its citizens equally.

[Cow Poke]

It wasn't intended to be condescending in the least.

That was a friendly poke - should have found a better way to indicate it as such. We good!

Of all the people here, you have continuously struck me as someone who might be willing to set aside their preconceptions and the drum beat of the right and look into matters for yourself. MY suggestion was genuine. Whether or not you take me up on it is entirely up to you.

Wow -- you might tell that to some of the lefitst nutters here!

(just kidding)

CP, I have been on the BLM website regularly for the past several years....

I'm more interested in seeing your response to their Marxist beginnings.

[carpedm9587]

OK, first....
A) There is nothing there with which you disagree?
2) You are completely fine with Marxism?

A) There is nothing here I disagree with.
2) There are few philosophies espoused by any individual that I am universally "fine with." I am fine with some aspects, and not fine with other aspects. The same is true of Christianism, Buddhism, Socialism, Populism, or any other "ism" you can think of.

[seer]

Check their website, CP. There is also a good review of the politics within the organization here. Then there are these:

Again Carp do you agree with the Marxism of the founders? Do you think they have changed their goals and embraced free markets? And do you think we will have more crime or less crime as we take more police off the street? Also you you agree with defunding jails?

[carpedm9587]

As far as I know they have not disavowed the racist founder of BLM in Toronto...

Yeah - this is a common tactic. Any movement will have its extremists - even its extremist chapters. After all, Christianity has the Westboro Baptist Church. What you are doing here is the equivalent of my holding up the Westboro Baptist Church as a reason why everyone should abandon Christianity as an evil, hateful, harmful institution because of the writing/preaching of the Westboro Baptist Church.

I find it sad that the efforts of these young people to find justice and an equal place in society is being so badly maligned by so many. You should meet some of them. They are passionate - they are motivated - and if the local chapter is any indication - they are going to vote.

[Cow Poke]

Yeah - this is a common tactic.

"Tactic"?

Any movement will have its extremists - even its extremist chapters. After all, Christianity has the Westboro Baptist Church. What you are doing here is the equivalent of my holding up the Westboro Baptist Church as a reason why everyone should abandon Christianity as an evil, hateful, harmful institution because of the writing/preaching of the Westboro Baptist Church.

I find it sad that the efforts of these young people to find justice and an equal place in society is being so badly maligned by so many. You should meet some of them. They are passionate - they are motivated - and if the local chapter is any indication - they are going to vote.

No, Carpe, you're missing it.... it's the FOUNDERS who proudly proclaim to be Marxists, not some fringe group.

And Westboro is a HORRIBLE analogy, as they are universally denounced by Christianity, they did not "found" Christianity, and only the enemies of Christianity try to attach them to us.

[seer]

Yeah - this is a common tactic. Any movement will have its extremists - even its extremist chapters. After all, Christianity has the Westboro Baptist Church. What you are doing here is the equivalent of my holding up the Westboro Baptist Church as a reason why everyone should abandon Christianity as an evil, hateful, harmful institution because of the writing/preaching of the Westboro Baptist Church.

Just about every Christian I know (including me) disavows Westboro. Show me who is disavowing Yusra Khogali, please show the links...

I find it sad that the efforts of these young people to find justice and an equal place in society is being so badly maligned by so many. You should meet some of them. They are passionate - they are motivated - and if the local chapter is any indication - they are going to vote.

Again Carp do you agree with the Marxism of the founders? Do you think they have changed their goals and embraced free markets? And do you think we will have more crime or less crime as we take more police off the street? Also you you agree with defunding jails?

[carpedm9587]

First their use of comrade is telling. But again Carp do you agree with the Marxism of the founders? Do you think they have changed their goals and embraced free markets?

I find nothing on the BLM site about abandoning free markets. But I am not an advocate of "free markets." All markets require some degree of regulation. Capitalism without regulation is a formula for injustice and harm.

And I certainly disagree with this: We disrupt the Western-prescribed nuclear family structure requirement by supporting each other as extended families and “villages” that collectively care for one another, especially our children, to the degree that mothers, parents, and children are comfortable.

I'm not surprised you disagree with that. Note the language, however. It does not say "We disrupt the Western-prescribed nuclear family structure by supporting each other as extended families..." It says "We disrupt the Western-prescribed nuclear family structure requirement by supporting each other as extended families..." In other words, they are embracing the fact that we have all sorts of family structures today. There is no need to reject family structures that do not adhere to the western-style "nuclear family" structure.

[Cow Poke]

Black Lives Matter co-founder describes herself as ‘trained Marxist’

Fake news?

Black Lives Matter co-founder Patrisse Cullors said in a newly surfaced video from 2015 that she and her fellow organizers are “trained Marxists” – making clear their movement’s ideological foundation, according to a report.

Cullors, 36, was the protégé of Eric Mann, former agitator of the Weather Underground domestic terror organization, and spent years absorbing the Marxist-Leninist ideology that shaped her worldview, Breitbart News reported.

“The first thing, I think, is that we actually do have an ideological frame. Myself and Alicia in particular are trained organizers,” she said, referring to BLM co-founder Alicia Garza.

“We are trained Marxists. We are super-versed on, sort of, ideological theories. And I think that what we really tried to do is build a movement that could be utilized by many, many black folk,” Cullors added in the interview with Jared Ball of The Real News Network.

[seer]

I find nothing on the BLM site about abandoning free markets. But I am not an advocate of "free markets." All markets require some degree of regulation. Capitalism without regulation is a formula for injustice and harm.

Either you you are ignorant of what they founders of BLM believe or, well. The founders are Marxists - do you agree with Marxism? And why do they use the term comrade knowing the history of that term?

I'm not surprised you disagree with that. Note the language, however. It does not say "We disrupt the Western-prescribed nuclear family structure by supporting each other as extended families..." It says "We disrupt the Western-prescribed nuclear family structure requirement by supporting each other as extended families..." In other words, they are embracing the fact that we have all sorts of family structures today. There is no need to reject family structures that do not adhere to the western-style "nuclear family" structure.

Yes collectivism...

[carpedm9587]

"Tactic"?

Tactic!

This is a common strategy to take down a perceived enemy. Trump does it regularly. Most politicians do it eventually. If you want to say "Group-X is bad," just find an example of someone affiliated with Group-X who is saying or doing demonstrably bad things, and then paint the entire organization with their words/deeds. It is a tactic, and an underhanded one at that.

No, Carpe, you're missing it.... it's the FOUNDERS who proudly proclaim to be Marxists, not some fringe group.

Marxism is not a "bogeyman" to me, CP. As I said - I take the good - discard the rest. I don't cower when someone screams "Marxist" and shudder in revulsion. You have to do better than just scream "marxist!"

And Westboro is a HORRIBLE analogy, as they are universally denounced by Christianity, they did not "found" Christianity, and only the enemies of Christianity try to attach them to us.

CP - the analogy is a perfectly good one. It is exactly what you folks are doing: picking out one chapter in one city where one person said unpleasant things (and if you do a bit of digging, she has several times noted that she posted in anger - and said things she does not mean), and then painting the entire organization with it.

It's unfortunate. Black lives do matter, and these folks deserve both a hearing AND action on their behalf.

[Cow Poke]

...It does not say "We disrupt the Western-prescribed nuclear family structure by supporting each other as extended families..." It says "We disrupt the Western-prescribed nuclear family structure requirement by supporting each other as extended families..." In other words, they are embracing the fact that we have all sorts of family structures today. There is no need to reject family structures that do not adhere to the western-style "nuclear family" structure.

I really wish I had saved pages or printed pages from BLM's website before they purged it of any mention of Marxism, and seriously toned down the rhetoric. "requirement" was added for the very purpose you point out.

[Sparko]

Most history books have been sanitized of the "dark side" of the revolution. The British are described as evil and looters, and the American soldiers the patriotic, valiant, fighters against oppression. Nothing is ever quite that black and white. There are several history books that do not have that sanitized relating.

Can you quote and cite some of these books that say the Americans were looters? Why would they loot themselves? If you mean attacking and destroying British outposts during the war, well that is what war is.

If these rioters want to be revolutionaries and go to war with the USA, then they need to be prepared to be treated as an enemy force and traitors.

[Cow Poke]

Tactic!

Nope

This is a common strategy to take down a perceived enemy. Trump does it regularly. Most politicians do it eventually. If you want to say "Group-X is bad," just find an example of someone affiliated with Group-X who is saying or doing demonstrably bad things, and then paint the entire organization with their words/deeds. It is a tactic, and an underhanded one at that.

Are you OK with the founders boasting about their Marxist training?

Marxism is not a "bogeyman" to me, CP. As I said - I take the good - discard the rest. I don't cower when someone screams "Marxist" and shudder in revulsion. You have to do better than just scream "marxist!"

OK, I think we're getting there --- you're going to swallow Marxism "for the greater good".

CP - the analogy is a perfectly good one.

Nope. It stinks out loud.

It is exactly what you folks are doing: picking out one chapter in one city where one person said unpleasant things (and if you do a bit of digging, she has several times noted that she posted in anger - and said things she does not mean), and then painting the entire organization with it.

I believe further discussion with you on this is a waste of my time, Carpe --- the Marxist founders of BLM have an agenda, and they're wrapping themselves in black skin to do it --- so say the black community leaders with whom I work, and I trust them more than I trust you on this.

It's not "ONE CHAPTER" - it's the Marxist FOUNDERS. Again, if you can't see that, this conversation is totally a waste of time.

It's unfortunate. Black lives do matter,

ABSOLUTELY!!!! (add huge font, blinking letters, flashing lights, siren sounds...)

and these folks deserve both a hearing AND action on their behalf.

Black people, yes --- Marxists, no.

[JimL]

"Tactic"?

Tactic?

No, Carpe, you're missing it.... it's the FOUNDERS who proudly proclaim to be Marxists, not some fringe group.

It could also be argued that the Founders of Christianity were communist. At any rate, it wasn't the Christianity that most practice today.