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  • Originally posted by seer View Post
    And how do you change that except at the end of a gun? As Lenin found out.
    I would start with education. And I think there are significant political changes that could be made that would help to break down classism. Both will be hard. The "upper classes" have a fairly strong hold on both the education and political systems. We have some hope for change in the U.S. because of our political system - and grassroots change IS possible.

    Originally posted by seer View Post
    As far as I can see free markets have lifted more people out of poverty than another system. That is why former socialist countries like China and Vietnam are embracing capitalism like gang busters.
    An oft-repeated mantra of the right. I have no problem with well-regulated capitalism.

    Originally posted by seer View Post
    Then you are not a very good Marxist, as a matter of fact you are not a Marxist at all - putting you at odds with the founders of BLM.
    I never claimed to be a marxist. The "isms" are your department. I don't subscribe to them. And I am at odds with my wife on many things too. So far - 32 years with no divorce

    Originally posted by seer View Post
    Why we have clearly debunked the meme of systemic police racism. There are other problems however.
    Not that I have ever seen. Systemic racism is deeply embedded in our entire justice system.
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

    Comment


    • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
      There IS a systemic problem in U.S. police forces that is pretty universal. I absolutely accept that it is not all police who are racist. And I don't even think it is most of them. But there are a significant number of bad apples - and there is a systemic "closing of the ranks" when one of these bad apples acts out. I sincerely doubt that any of the police who were involved with Floyd's death or any of the other deaths that have come to light in the past couple months are going to be convicted. The "system" will protect them. That is a problem.
      That is nonsense there is no systemic problem based on race, and Floyd's killer will go to prison. And that event was roundly condemned by those of us on the right.
      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
        Those ideas did not begin with Locke, Hume, Voltaire, etc., the ideas are thousands of years older than that, being found in the very earliest Jewish writings in what today is known as the Old Testament. The Founding Fathers were considered radical thinkers not because they came up with a new idea but because they rejected the status quo of their time which was monarchic governments that suppressed personal liberty, and demanded a return to orthodox religion (this is where the term "American exceptionalism" comes from, because the US government was an exception to how the rest of world operated). They drew their inspiration for self-governance, ultimately, from scripture, which is about as ancient an ideal as you can get. It's notable that today's liberals want to kick the Bible to the curb and embrace new ideas that are, in fact, contrary to the beliefs of our Founding Fathers.
        MM - I didn't say the FF's invented the ideas. Heck, I doubt a genuinely new political idea has been generated in the last millenium. AFAIK, every single political system in existence has existed before sometime in the last three millenia. Liberals are not liberals because they have "new ideas." They are liberals because they do exactly what you describe: buck the status quo. The conservative wants things to stay the same - the liberals want to change the things that need changing. The FFs saw that the status quo was ugly and sought to change it. They turned to the political philosophies of Locke, Hume, Voltaire, and others for their inspiration - including the bible that was the center of their religious beliefs.

        As for "American Exceptionalism," you are not exactly rewriting history - but you are narrowly focusing on one meaning of the term as it has been used historically. American exceptionalism has also referred to the (arrogant) point of view that Americans are in some way "exceptional" as compared to others, and uniquely suited to solving the world's problems. It is part and parcel of the entire notion of "manifest destiny." The concepts (though not the terms) date all the way back to the Puritan migration - many of whom believed their success in the "new world" would signal god's approval of their endeavor.
        The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

        I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
          I'll try to come back to the rest of this, but it's the social services (black) people I'm dealing with that are concerned about the motivation behind BLM.

          Going to lunch with my sweetie!
          Interesting. I wonder if geography is a factor. The north/south divide? Or how much does your role as a white religious leader influence the discussion?
          The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

          I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

          Comment


          • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
            I would start with education. And I think there are significant political changes that could be made that would help to break down classism. Both will be hard. The "upper classes" have a fairly strong hold on both the education and political systems. We have some hope for change in the U.S. because of our political system - and grassroots change IS possible.
            Are you freaking kidding me? The education system in this country has largely been run by the left for decades. And just about every large city with poor minority education has also been governed by the left for decades. In the larger cities in my state they spend around $15,000 a year per student with no noticeable results. What about school choice? Inner city families are begging for vouchers.

            An oft-repeated mantra of the right. I have no problem with well-regulated capitalism.
            Capitalism is antithetical to Marxism. Make up your mind.

            I never claimed to be a marxist. The "isms" are your department. I don't subscribe to them. And I am at odds with my wife on many things too. So far - 32 years with no divorce
            Then you shouldn't support BLM. Because they ARE.


            Systemic racism is deeply embedded in our entire justice system.
            How so? Be specific.
            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

            Comment


            • Originally posted by seer View Post
              Of course you are not, you are willing to embrace Marxism which is deeply anti-american since our system is grounded in personal property rights and individual rights.
              Seer - you can paint me into any box you wish - but as with so many of our previous discussions - your attempts to slap a label on me don't do much of anything except result in you talking in circles to a figment of your own imagination.

              It's why I've come to the conclusion that discussion with you is largely pointless. You don't seem to want to know what someone thinks so you can explore it and understand it. You seem to want to know just enough so you can slap a label on it and apply your big-bad-boogeyman stamp. It's not a very useful way to converse.

              For the record - I'm not marxist. I'd be hard put to find any "ism" that I 100% align with. When I find an "ism," I explore it, adopt what seems good and leave the rest. Sorry that doesn't fit into your neat, black/white labeling scheme.
              The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

              I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

              Comment


              • Originally posted by seer View Post
                Even if they are using black lives as a wedge issue to disguise the ulterior motive of pushing Marxism?
                Your conclusion - and I think you're wrong. As I said - I'e encountered no sign of "marxism" in any part of the BLM organization I have encountered, nor do I find it on their website. Apparently, some of the founders hold/held marxist views. For me, that is a rather "ho-hum" fact. Like I said, I don't have your reaction to "ism-based" boogeymen.
                The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                Comment


                • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                  Your conclusion - and I think you're wrong. As I said - I'e encountered no sign of "marxism" in any part of the BLM organization I have encountered, nor do I find it on their website. Apparently, some of the founders hold/held marxist views. For me, that is a rather "ho-hum" fact. Like I said, I don't have your reaction to "ism-based" boogeymen.
                  No the FOUNDERS of BLM are Marxists. That is not a small thing. Just because they post some nice sounding ideal does mean that isn't their over all goal. Of course it is...
                  Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by seer View Post
                    That is nonsense there is no systemic problem based on race,
                    Yeah - there is, Seer. It is visible in all of the data, in the sheer number of police exposed for their racist views, and in the "closed ranks" of the other police who take little/no action or voice little/no outrage. You are turning a blind eye.

                    Originally posted by seer View Post
                    and Floyd's killer will go to prison.
                    That would surprise me - but I hope you are right. IF you are right - it will be "one down." There are hundreds of others who have gotten away with it, and there are more getting away with it daily. And it is not just the police. It is our entire society.

                    Originally posted by seer View Post
                    And that event was roundly condemned by those of us on the right.
                    Good for you - for this one. Like the Westboro Baptist Church - this one was so egregious, it was almost impossible NOT to speak out against it. Now on to the rest - and all of the systemic issue.
                    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                      Yeah - there is, Seer. It is visible in all of the data, in the sheer number of police exposed for their racist views, and in the "closed ranks" of the other police who take little/no action or voice little/no outrage. You are turning a blind eye.
                      Show me the numbers....

                      Blacks for instance are 13% of the population yet commit 53% of the murders, 29% of the rapes and 54% of the robberies nation wide. So of course they are going to have more interaction with police, and may end up in prison in greater numbers.

                      https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s...ables/table-43

                      And:

                      There is no epidemic of fatal police shootings against unarmed Black Americans

                      https://www.usatoday.com/story/opini...mn/3235072001/
                      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                        I didn't say the FF's invented the ideas.
                        Right, it was a return to some of the oldest ideals in history, to some of the oldest traditions known to man. That is the Founding Fathers rejected the new in favor of the old, which is classic conservatism. That's what conservatives do, we reject the status quo in favor of the "old". Your notion that the Founding Fathers were "liberal" in any meaningful sense of the term is absurd.
                        Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                        But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                        Than a fool in the eyes of God


                        From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by seer View Post
                          Show me the numbers....

                          Blacks for instance are 13% of the population yet commit 53% of the murders, 29% of the rapes and 54% of the robberies nation wide. So of course they are going to have more interaction with police, and may end up in prison in greater numbers.

                          https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s...ables/table-43

                          And:

                          There is no epidemic of fatal police shootings against unarmed Black Americans

                          https://www.usatoday.com/story/opini...mn/3235072001/
                          Prediction: Carp's rebuttal -- "See, this is all a result of systemic anti-black racism, so I'm right."

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by seer View Post
                            Are you freaking kidding me? The education system in this country has largely been run by the left for decades.
                            A modern myth. Who is running the school system depends largely on the local politics. Now that we have become a more polarized nation, even to where we choose to live, local school systems are all over the map.

                            And then there is state-level involvement, which is also polarized. Haven't you heard how we have two sets of history and science books because how Texas wants their kids taught differs from how California wants it? And the other states are minor voices in that, so "liberal" localities use the California texts and "conservative" localities use the Texas books.

                            And national policies are set by the administration, since schools fall under the executive branch and the cabinet. So for the last 3.5 years, that would be Republicans. For the 8 previous years - Democrats. For the 8 preceding years - Republicans. Remember NCLB? Not exactly a leftist plot.

                            Originally posted by seer View Post
                            And just about every large city with poor minority education has also been governed by the left for decades. In the larger cities in my state they spend around $15,000 a year per student with no noticeable results.
                            Yes - cities tend to be predominantly Democrat - and rural tends to be predominantly Republican. So whichever one you live in, you will be more influenced by that local bent, as I said above. I'm not sure what ANY of this has to do with the observation that we "need to start with education."

                            Originally posted by seer View Post
                            What about school choice? Inner city families are begging for vouchers.
                            I would love to see the data that supports this claim. If you can link me to it, I'd lie to review it. Meanwhile, I have mixed feelings about the "school choice" and "voucher" system. At first blush, it seems like a good idea. Closer examination shows that it usually leads to even more redirection of funds from poor schools to wealthy ones. It is a natural consequence: if there are poor schools that are struggling to be successful, and rich schools that are not, many in the poor school will want a voucher to go to the rich school. That just makes matters worse for those left behind. I would prefer a mechanism for leveling the playing field for all schools. That would have to start by changing how schools are funded so that inner city schools have access to the same resources that affluent communities have access to.

                            Originally posted by seer View Post
                            Capitalism is antithetical to Marxism. Make up your mind.
                            My mind is made up, Seer. You're the one who applied the "marxism" label, remember? I never said I was Marxist.

                            Originally posted by seer View Post
                            Then you shouldn't support BLM. Because they ARE.
                            So far, the only evidence you have provided to support this claim is that some of the founders had marxist views. It doesn't seem to have percolated into the organization, AFAICT. SO I am not concerned.

                            Originally posted by seer View Post
                            How so? Be specific.
                            Seer - look at the data. Black people are regularly handed harsher sentences than white people for the same crime. They are regularly confronted by law enforcement for actions that would be ignored if they were being done by a white person. Plea deals for black people are regularly less than plea deals for white people in identical circumstances. And racist cops are regularly protected by the closed ranks of the "blue wall." This is the nature of systemic racism.

                            Look, don't get me wrong. I value our police force and the service they provide. I understand they put their lives at risk for the rest of us, and are the first responders who run towards harm when all others run away. They should be applauded for their service. AND I am capable of saying, "there are a few things that need to be looked at." The very nature of the job is subject to attracting not only the valiant and honorable, but also the power hungry. The latter are the problem. They need to be identified and weeded out. Instead, when it comes to racial issues, they are coddled and protected.

                            The situation with bad police is not all that different from the situation with bad priests: both are examples of institutions "protecting their own" in ways they ought not be doing.
                            The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                            I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by seer View Post
                              No the FOUNDERS of BLM are Marxists. That is not a small thing. Just because they post some nice sounding ideal does mean that isn't their over all goal. Of course it is...
                              As noted, I could give a fig what the founders personal beliefs were. I deal with the individuals and ideals of the organization as a whole. I repeat, I have seen no sign of marxism anywhere except in your concerns about "the founders," and the naive use of "comrade" without understanding its historical significance.

                              This is somewhat ho-hum to me, so I'll leave the last word on it to you.
                              The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                              I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by seer View Post
                                Show me the numbers....

                                Blacks for instance are 13% of the population yet commit 53% of the murders, 29% of the rapes and 54% of the robberies nation wide. So of course they are going to have more interaction with police, and may end up in prison in greater numbers.

                                https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s...ables/table-43

                                And:

                                There is no epidemic of fatal police shootings against unarmed Black Americans

                                https://www.usatoday.com/story/opini...mn/3235072001/
                                Crime and violence is not associated with skin color; it is associated with poverty.

                                If you think it is associated with skin color - if you think having black skin makes you more prone to crime and violence - then you are the very definition of a racist.

                                Try this, Seer: American citizens are the most lawless, most criminal, most violent people on the planet.
                                The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                                I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                                Comment

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