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  • Conservative values/principles, is an oxymoron; the now infamous Conservative SCOTUS being a good example:

    https://openargs.com/oa403-scotus-de...te-separation/
    We’ve had a slew of terrible decisions for anyone who believes that taxpayers should not have to fund Christianity.
    “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
    “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
    “not all there” - you know who you are

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Ronson View Post
      Quick question here: Why is it important for you to "expose" your sons to western black culture?
      Actually - it was a lot more important to my wife than to me. For her, it was a responsibility she felt she took on when we adopted inter-racially. For me, it was more akin to "connecting with our roots." I am of French Canadian descent, and we have done a lot of exploring in Canada and various French Canadian towns in the U.S. My wife is Italian and we have explored that heritage and plan to head for Italy now that we are retired (once this pandemic is behind us). So exploring the cultural heritage of the boys seemed a fairly natural thing to do.

      I suspect many of us have a desire, now and again, to explore "where we came from."
      The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

      I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

      Comment


      • Originally posted by seanD View Post
        BLM is a lie. BLM is not responding to any real issue; they're responding to social media illusion, hype and MSM sensationalism (though there are good reasons to suspect something politically deeper is at play, but that can't be readily proven). It rests on a false premise and you've been shown this over and over.
        Your opinion is duly noted. I disagree with your assessment and find the arguments you and Seer have put forward to be lacking - for the reasons I have already cited.

        Originally posted by seanD View Post
        We just had 8 years of a sitting black president, yet this country is supposedly plagued by white systemic racism.
        You seem to think these two possibilities are mutually exclusive. That is a flawed premise.

        Originally posted by seanD View Post
        How many wealthy and successful black folks are there out there now?
        What does this have to do with systemic racism?

        Originally posted by seanD View Post
        How many black representatives are in the House, the Senate, mayors, city council people, lawyers, doctors, professors, yet this mythical white systemic racism is supposed to be keeping these successful black folks down.
        Again - not mutually exclusive. And you should try having a conversation with these folks. Many of them report exactly what I (and BLM) have been saying. The one black Senator in the Republican party has been quite vocal about how he is treated even within the capital building, and how it differs from how his colleagues are treated.

        Originally posted by seanD View Post
        Anti-black systemic racism is not a thing and this can be demonstrated in any innumerable ways, whether from raw statistics, personal experience, or just common sense.
        And yet is is continually shown to be true - both anecdotally and with solid data. Turning a blind eye to it doesn't make it go away.

        Originally posted by seanD View Post
        If you want to hand-wave all this like you always do, go ahead (you've certainly done it before in face of facts thrown right at you). The hyperbole reflects my personal disgust (and it literally sickens me physically) with this issue and the fact you and the left keep perpetuating this lie to the point it's creating unnecessary division and chaos in this country.
        The hand-wave meme is truly old and tired - but I recognize why ya'll feel a need to perpetuate it. After all, its easier than actually tackling the arguments. It's ironic, actually. What the hyperbole reflects does not change that it is hyperbole and, almost by definition, untrue. As for division - the division is already there. Just because people don't want to hear about the reality of systemic/implicit racism doesn't mean it should not be highlighted and challenged. And wherever it is found, it should be rooted out.

        Turning your back on the facts, Sean, doesn't make them go away. Everywhere we turn we see evidence of systemic racism. We saw it in AirBnB. We saw it in Uber and Lyft. We see it in the sentencing data for criminal offenses. We've seen it in how resumes are handled/processed. We get a constant stream of anecdotal evidence from the black community about what life is like as a black person. There are piles and piles of data pointing to the existence of this reality. And it simply makes common sense. We are only a couple generations away from the civil rights era, only a few more from Jim Crow, and just a few more from the Civil War. Before that stretches an almost 400 year history of black slavery in the U.S. Can anyone seriously believe that the effects of over 500 years of racism embedded in everything from our Constitution to our economic practices and our daily habits is going to be erased in a handful of decades?

        Taking a stand against it and insisting on change is the ethical thing to do. It is why I support BLM and actively participate in their work.
        The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

        I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

        Comment


        • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
          Actually - it was a lot more important to my wife than to me. For her, it was a responsibility she felt she took on when we adopted inter-racially. For me, it was more akin to "connecting with our roots." I am of French Canadian descent, and we have done a lot of exploring in Canada and various French Canadian towns in the U.S. My wife is Italian and we have explored that heritage and plan to head for Italy now that we are retired (once this pandemic is behind us). So exploring the cultural heritage of the boys seemed a fairly natural thing to do.

          I suspect many of us have a desire, now and again, to explore "where we came from."
          Out of curiosity, what do you consider to be the cultural heritage of blacks? Is it American culture (and what subset of American culture?), or do you consider it be African culture?
          Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
          But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
          Than a fool in the eyes of God


          From "Fools Gold" by Petra

          Comment


          • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
            Yes - worse to the point that black people who stepped out of line were regularly lynched. Peak years for the KKK were 1915-1944. So you wonder why black crime was less of an issue back then? It was the age of Jim Crow. And black people were still widely incarcerated. You see, there is only one remaining, constitutionally protected, opportunity for slavery: the prison system. So if you can get a significant part of the black (especially male) population in jail, you don't have to entirely abandon slavery. Isn't that convenient? That was a major driving force behind Jim Crow and all of its associated laws.

            BTW - is there a particular reason that you chose the image of a documented antisemite as your avatar?
            So Jim Crow actually saved black lives by preventing blacks from shooting each other en masse? And I still like Mel Gibson, and I love that movie which I watch (as I always do) on the 4th of July.
            Last edited by seer; 07-14-2020, 07:04 AM.
            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

            Comment


            • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
              When did I EVER say that? Part of the problem with our discussions, Seer, is you insert meaning into my posts I never intended or even considered. You do it on a regular basis. Misunderstanding happens now and again, but with you it happens regularly. And then when I try to correct your misunderstanding, you cling to your misconceptions and insist I think/mean things I've never thought or said. It makes the entire process of discussion with you more than a little tedious. Sparko basically does the same thing. MM and Pix as well, but those two long since have demonstrated they are primarily interested in trolling, so it's to be expected.
              You said: Crime and violence is not associated with skin color; it is associated with poverty. But poverty can not be the main driving force or whites would have a greater rate of murders and robberies than blacks. There must be other variables.


              Seer, when you and others like you persist in associating crime or violence with "black people," you contribute to the systemic/implicit racism present in our society. You are associating an action (violence) with the characteristic of a person that has NOTHING to do with the action. It communicates "black people are more violent." It feeds into the worldview of the true racists of our country, and perpetuates an image of black people that is simply untrue. You are responsible for your choice of words.
              But that is a fact, blacks are more violent, in this country at this time - how can 13% of the population (actually it is 6% since it is mostly males) cause 51% of the murders and 48% of robberies otherwise? And I don't blame that on skin color. But my main point is that there is no evidence for systemic police racism.

              You are right that I will not be able to read behind a pay wall. The article you linked had no reference to the WSJ, had no references that I could find (only three "related links"), and contained information that was irrelevant to the point I had made. It doe snot explain the findings of the USCC (and other studies) that was the heart of my argument. So I don't see how your article addresses the core problem.
              What? I gave you a link to the Wall Street Journal, here it is again: https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-myt...sm-11591119883 It is the same article with the same author.

              And what the article and the referenced studies demonstrate is there is not systemic police racism. It does not get into incarceration rates. I have been dealing with your specific claim of systemic police racism, which is a false meme.




              Yes - exactly. So unlike your claim that they ignored the offenders criminal history, the study explains that criminal history was examined and was determined to not be a factor in the demographic differences in sentencing. That is not the same as "they didn't control for previous arrest records."
              Nonsense, they only had one year where they actually did control criminal history. How is that any more than an anomaly?

              From you link:

              Because the data regarding violent offenses was available
              only for offenders sentenced in fiscal year 2016
              , the Commission’s
              analysis had to be limited to cases from that fiscal year. Also, in order to
              determine whether adding the data regarding violence had any effect on
              the analysis, the Commission first performed an analysis of cases from
              fiscal year 2016 without the additional data involving violence. Then the
              analysis was replicated, with data concerning prior violence added into
              the analysis. The two results were then compared.
              They only controlled for past violent offenses, but that is not what I said they did not control for. They did not control for all criminal history (which would include both violent and non-violent offences).




              So let me get this right: you are referencing a 23-year-old study that cites data from 25+ years ago to refute an argument made by a one year old study implemented by the U.S. government on its own justice system? Your study was made before the Clinton three-strikes initiative and a LOT of racial history. How on earth do you think this in any way applies?
              As far as I know it is the most comprehensive study out there.





              Seer, take a good look at a map - and see if you can determine if South America is or is not a collection of "Western Countries." Last I checked, it was firmly in the Western Hemisphere.
              When I talk about Western countries I'm not speaking of LOCATION... Sheesh...
              Last edited by seer; 07-14-2020, 07:57 AM.
              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

              Comment


              • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                Actually - it was a lot more important to my wife than to me. For her, it was a responsibility she felt she took on when we adopted inter-racially. For me, it was more akin to "connecting with our roots." I am of French Canadian descent, and we have done a lot of exploring in Canada and various French Canadian towns in the U.S. My wife is Italian and we have explored that heritage and plan to head for Italy now that we are retired (once this pandemic is behind us). So exploring the cultural heritage of the boys seemed a fairly natural thing to do.

                I suspect many of us have a desire, now and again, to explore "where we came from."
                My family line on one side is mostly English, and the other side is Welsh and Portuguese. I've not much interest in any of them. I haven't got a drop of Russian in my blood but their culture is the most interesting to me. So the reason I asked is that we all come to our own conclusions about cultural interests and outside influences probably won't matter in the long run.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                  Out of curiosity, what do you consider to be the cultural heritage of blacks? Is it American culture (and what subset of American culture?), or do you consider it be African culture?
                  I would consider the entire history of black people (including life as an African-American) to be the cultural heritage of black people, just as I would consider the history of Italians (including life as an Italian-American) to be the cultural heritage of Italians.
                  The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                  I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by seer View Post
                    So Jim Crow actually saved black lives by preventing blacks from shooting each other en masse?
                    Wow. your ability to derive meaning from my posts that was never intended or included in the post continues to me.

                    Originally posted by seer View Post
                    And I still like Mel Gibson, and I love that movie which I watch (as I always do) on the 4th of July.
                    I enjoy a variety of action movies as well. I'm not going to honor an antisemite by making him my avatar. There are plenty of other images from that movie that could be used. Just sayin'
                    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                      Wow. your ability to derive meaning from my posts that was never intended or included in the post continues to me.
                      Well you did say that crime was down because of Jim Crow.

                      I enjoy a variety of action movies as well. I'm not going to honor an antisemite by making him my avatar. There are plenty of other images from that movie that could be used. Just sayin'
                      Oh stop, I like the movie, he is the star and he is carrying the Betsy Ross flag. Doesn't get any better than that. Besides he was drunk and did apologized. I believe people can change - don't you?
                      Last edited by seer; 07-14-2020, 09:32 AM.
                      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by seer View Post
                        You said: Crime and violence is not associated with skin color; it is associated with poverty. But poverty can not be the main driving force or whites would have a greater rate of murders and robberies than blacks. There must be other variables.
                        There are...as I identified in my previous post.

                        Originally posted by seer View Post
                        But that is a fact, blacks are more violent, in this country at this time - how can 13% of the population (actually it is 6% since it is mostly males) cause 51% of the murders and 48% of robberies otherwise?
                        This is simply blatant, in-your-face, racism. Linking the violence to an attribute that has nothing to do with the violence (i.e., skin color) is the very definition of racism and perpetuates racial stereotypes. I had thought better of you, Seer.

                        Originally posted by seer View Post
                        And I don't blame that on skin color. But my main point is that there is no evidence for systemic police racism.
                        Ignoring the evidence for police racism doesn't make it go away...

                        Originally posted by seer View Post
                        What? I gave you a link to the Wall Street Journal, here it is again: https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-myt...sm-11591119883 It is the same article with the same author.
                        You gave me a link to a blog that has no references. You then gave me a link to the WSJ article which is behind a paywall where I cannot see it, so I still have no references.

                        Originally posted by seer View Post
                        And what the article and the referenced studies demonstrate is there is not systemic police racism. It does not get into incarceration rates. I have been dealing with your specific claim of systemic police racism, which is a false meme.
                        You have shifted the discussion to the usual set of data cited by many on the right to deny the existence of justice-system racism, continually ignoring and not responding to the data I actually provided and the argument I actually made.

                        Ignoring the argument and data doesn't make it go away.

                        Originally posted by seer View Post
                        Nonsense, they only had one year where they actually did control criminal history. How is that any more than an anomaly?

                        From you link:

                        They only controlled for past violent offenses, but that is not what I said they did not control for. They did not control for all criminal history (which would include both violent and non-violent offences).
                        Read it again, Seer. Even just the part you just posted. You are doing with this what you continually do with my post: add meaning that is simply not there.

                        Originally posted by seer View Post
                        As far as I know it is the most comprehensive study out there.
                        So you think this makes your case because it's the only thing you can put your hands on?

                        Seer - your study has been rendered largely obsolete by the passage of time and circumstance. You cannot refute claims based on 2019/2018 data with a 23-year old study based on 25-year old data. Simple common sense should tell you this.

                        Originally posted by seer View Post
                        When I talk about Western countries I'm not speaking of LOCATION... Sheesh...
                        So what exactly do you think "western" means?
                        The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                        I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by seer View Post
                          Well you did say that crime was down because of Jim Crow.
                          What I said was that Jim Crow laws as well as Jim Crow mindset made "stepping out of line" very expensive for black citizens. It is not a stretch to consider the impact of those consequences on those considering committing a crime. When a black child can be beaten to death for being accused of whistling at a white woman - it is not a stretch to assume they might think twice about stealing or killing.

                          Originally posted by seer View Post
                          Oh stop, I like the movie, he is the star and he is carrying the Betsy Ross flag. Doesn't get any better than that. Besides he was drunk and did apologized. I believe people can change - don't you?
                          Yeah...they can change. And when I see evidence that he has, I'll cut him a break. There are simply too many continuing stories of his antisemitic comments and outbursts for me to think that has happened, or for me to honor him by making him my avatar. You have a wealth of choices - so your selection is interesting. But then again, you defend Trump - so why am I not surprised...
                          The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                          I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                            Yes - worse to the point that black people who stepped out of line were regularly lynched. Peak years for the KKK were 1915-1944. So you wonder why black crime was less of an issue back then? It was the age of Jim Crow. And black people were still widely incarcerated. You see, there is only one remaining, constitutionally protected, opportunity for slavery: the prison system. So if you can get a significant part of the black (especially male) population in jail, you don't have to entirely abandon slavery. Isn't that convenient? That was a major driving force behind Jim Crow and all of its associated laws.

                            BTW - is there a particular reason that you chose the image of a documented antisemite as your avatar?
                            Most crime, including violent crime, is intraracial rather than interracial. How would Jim Crow have affected that? In fact, I'll posit that the Democrats who supported Jim Crow laws would be quite pleased if blacks were killing each other at the rates we see today. Not only would they not lift a finger to stop it they would likely cheer it on.

                            Your answer makes about as much sense as AOC's claim that violent crime is spiking because the economy is forcing people to shoplift bread to feed their families. IOW, none whatsoever.

                            I'm always still in trouble again

                            "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                            "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                            "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                              There are...as I identified in my previous post.
                              But that was after your initial claim that I debunked.


                              This is simply blatant, in-your-face, racism. Linking the violence to an attribute that has nothing to do with the violence (i.e., skin color) is the very definition of racism and perpetuates racial stereotypes. I had thought better of you, Seer.
                              Yep you finally got there! I specifically said it was not about skin color.


                              Ignoring the evidence for police racism doesn't make it go away...
                              I gave you the stats. You just hand wave. And I'm not arguing that there is never racism by police, but that systemic police racism is a lie. For instance last year about 10 unarmed black men were killed by police, twice as many whites were killed. Yes that is a higher percentage for blacks, but the higher crime rates more than account for that.

                              You gave me a link to a blog that has no references. You then gave me a link to the WSJ article which is behind a paywall where I cannot see it, so I still have no references.
                              In the WSJ link you can read most of the first paragraph, and see the author's name. It is the same article and the piece and the referenced studies undermines your false claim of systemic police racism.




                              You have shifted the discussion to the usual set of data cited by many on the right to deny the existence of justice-system racism, continually ignoring and not responding to the data I actually provided and the argument I actually made.
                              Nonsense, you can believe what you want - you have no argument for systemic police racism...

                              Ignoring the argument and data doesn't make it go away.



                              Read it again, Seer. Even just the part you just posted. You are doing with this what you continually do with my post: add meaning that is simply not there.
                              What are you talking about? They only had one year where they included past offences, but never included non-violent offences. Things like drug trafficking, thief, larceny, etc.. were never included and certainly would be things taken into consideration.



                              So you think this makes your case because it's the only thing you can put your hands on?

                              Seer - your study has been rendered largely obsolete by the passage of time and circumstance. You cannot refute claims based on 2019/2018 data with a 23-year old study based on 25-year old data. Simple common sense should tell you this.
                              So use your study where they never controlled for non-violent criminal history.



                              So what exactly do you think "western" means?
                              Liberal western democracies. Like for like.
                              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post

                                Yeah...they can change. And when I see evidence that he has, I'll cut him a break. There are simply too many continuing stories of his antisemitic comments and outbursts for me to think that has happened, or for me to honor him by making him my avatar. You have a wealth of choices - so your selection is interesting. But then again, you defend Trump - so why am I not surprised...
                                Where have you seen recent antisemitic comments since his 06 apology? Be specific please.
                                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                                Comment

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