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  • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    Actually - there is no evidence that it is cultural either. That is pure (racist) speculation on your part.
    Race is not culture. Culture is not race. Therefore, saying that something is due to culture is not racist.
    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
    Than a fool in the eyes of God


    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
      Meh... I'd rejoice that I got 'a better deal', and not sweat the "why". More money to spend on raising them.
      Unfortunately, not in my DNA. We found out the full rate and donated the difference to the agency. The same has been true of many things that came along over the course of their lives. I made it clear to my boys that our support for education and related expenses would be cut off if they took advantage of any scholarships/gifts that were based on race. I had a good job and a good career and could afford to help them with school. Those scholarships/grants are for those who need them - and I am not a fan of racism OR reverse racism.

      Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
      At the risk of derailing this thread with friendliness between sworn enemies, how old were each of them when adopted? (sorry if you already covered that - I was busy hating you)
      So THAT's why my shorts were burning...

      Isaiah was 20 days old. He was born on the day we sent our introductory letter to the agency. Talk about a "polaroid baby."

      Michael was 2.5 months, and a more complex story. He wasn't the child we went down to Texas to adopt - so he was a bit of a "surprise" baby.
      The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

      I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

      Comment


      • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
        Unfortunately, not in my DNA. We found out the full rate and donated the difference to the agency. The same has been true of many things that came along over the course of their lives. I made it clear to my boys that our support for education and related expenses would be cut off if they took advantage of any scholarships/gifts that were based on race. I had a good job and a good career and could afford to help them with school. Those scholarships/grants are for those who need them - and I am not a fan of racism OR reverse racism.
        OK, so this, I don't get... It is what it is -- it just seems like, with all of this, you are HYPER-focused on race.
        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by seer View Post
          Carp I was speaking of violent crime. For instance murder, there you have 13% of the population that commits 51% of murders. Same with robbery. So if poverty IS the problem the whites should be the ones committing the greater portion of these crimes - actually the poor whites should be committing TWICE as many crimes given the 67/32 split so you can't blame poverty.
          Seer - violent crime skews to the poor, nonviolent crime includes the whole world of "white collar" crime so skews to the wealthy. As for the rest, my comments were about crime overall. When you narrow to violent crimes, poverty is only ONE of the defining issues. Home environment is another. Rural/Suburban/Urban is a third. NONE of the factors impacting even violent crime is indexed to sin color. The color of a person's skin has ZERO impact on their propensity to violence - which is what makes the constant association of violent crime with black skin part of the whole world of systemic/implicit racism.

          Originally posted by seer View Post
          It is the a Wall Street Journal story with REFERENCES to the relative studies.
          I don't know what you think you linked, but it was not a WSJ article.

          Originally posted by seer View Post
          From you link:Black male offenders continued to receive longer sentences than similarly situated White male offenders.

          Yes they do, but what the studies do not control for are previous arrest records. As your link states, there is scant evidence. The other point is economic issues - are they comparing poor whites with poor blacks? Most poor people just don't have access to good lawyers. It just may be that whites have more economic advantage. Which is the case generally.
          Where on earth do you get THAT? What do you think "similarly situated white male offenders" means? Do you seriously think that the US Sentencing Commission would make such a ridiculous error? I suggest you review the attached report.

          Originally posted by seer View Post
          Excuse me, which western country has a higher murder rate than the US for example?
          Most of them are in South America. The U.S. doesn't even make the top ten.
          The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

          I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

          Comment


          • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
            Seer - violent crime skews to the poor, nonviolent crime includes the whole world of "white collar" crime so skews to the wealthy. As for the rest, my comments were about crime overall. When you narrow to violent crimes, poverty is only ONE of the defining issues. Home environment is another. Rural/Suburban/Urban is a third. NONE of the factors impacting even violent crime is indexed to sin color. The color of a person's skin has ZERO impact on their propensity to violence - which is what makes the constant association of violent crime with black skin part of the whole world of systemic/implicit racism.



            I don't know what you think you linked, but it was not a WSJ article.



            Where on earth do you get THAT? What do you think "similarly situated white male offenders" means? Do you seriously think that the US Sentencing Commission would make such a ridiculous error? I suggest you review the attached report.



            Most of them are in South America. The U.S. doesn't even make the top ten.
            There you go again. You keep implying seer is racist by accusing him of correlating crime with skin color. He's NOT doing that

            Comment


            • Originally posted by seanD View Post
              Let me just inform you, lest you use the racism card again, I'm mixed race (black father). Now that that's out of the way. I've lived in the "ghetto" (downtown LA -- though it's fairly eclectic now) for quite a awhile, and I can tell you firsthand, it's cultural and it's self-inflicted within the black community itself. Poverty is just a lame excuse. As seer pointed out, other races, including whites struggle with poverty without the same results. Some of it, if not a lot of it, is also political, based on liberal polices, but that's a whole other can of worms.
              Sean - you are making the mistake that Sparko and so many others here regularly make: using anecdotal/personal evidence to make a broad statistical claim. I do not doubt your experience - but I do doubt your attempt to apply you localized, personal experience to the national at large. If you are going to make a statistical claim - you need statistical evidence. All you have proven is that, in the neighborhood you had direct experience of, something you interpret as "cultural" is responsible for the violent crime (or any crime?) performed by a member of the black community.

              And I think we have long since established that ones skin color is not a guard against racism. There are white people racist against black people and black people racist against white people. There are also black people with racist views about black people and white people with racist views about white people. A racist view is a racist view: it doesn't matter who is expressing it or what color their skin is or what their parentage is.
              The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

              I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                ...it just seems like, with all of this, you are HYPER-focused on race.
                Isn't it interesting how the people who yell the loudest about not being racist, are the ones who seem to find racism even in places where it doesn't exist?
                Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                Than a fool in the eyes of God


                From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                  OK, so this, I don't get... It is what it is -- it just seems like, with all of this, you are HYPER-focused on race.
                  Umm...we are discussing race and experiencing racism. You want me to be focused on the fungus infecting my squash plants instead?
                  The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                  I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                    Sean - you are making the mistake that Sparko and so many others here regularly make: using anecdotal/personal evidence to make a broad statistical claim. I do not doubt your experience - but I do doubt your attempt to apply you localized, personal experience to the national at large. If you are going to make a statistical claim - you need statistical evidence. All you have proven is that, in the neighborhood you had direct experience of, something you interpret as "cultural" is responsible for the violent crime (or any crime?) performed by a member of the black community.

                    And I think we have long since established that ones skin color is not a guard against racism. There are white people racist against black people and black people racist against white people. There are also black people with racist views about black people and white people with racist views about white people. A racist view is a racist view: it doesn't matter who is expressing it or what color their skin is or what their parentage is.
                    No, I'm using BOTH anecdotal/personal evidence (something you certainly can't claim) and I'm using statistical facts (that seer is using and you can't seem to refute) in combination.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                      Umm...we are discussing race and experiencing racism. You want me to be focused on the fungus infecting my squash plants instead?
                      I'm talking about your whole journey - not "the discussion". It seems to me that your whole outlook on life is too "race centrist". Peoples is peoples. Even Pete says so.



                      "Hey. I tell you what is. Big city, hmm? Live. Work, huh? But. Is not city open. Only peoples. Peoples is peoples. No is buildings. Is tomatoes, huh? Is peoples, is dancing, is music, is potatoes. So, peoples is peoples. Okay?"
                      The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by seer View Post
                        Carp I was speaking of violent crime. For instance murder, there you have 13% of the population that commits 51% of murders. Same with robbery. So if poverty IS the problem the whites should be the ones committing the greater portion of these crimes - actually the poor whites should be committing TWICE as many crimes given the 67/32 split so you can't blame poverty.


                        It is the a Wall Street Journal story with REFERENCES to the relative studies.


                        From you link:Black male offenders continued to receive longer sentences than similarly situated White male offenders.

                        Yes they do, but what the studies do not control for are previous arrest records. As your link states, there is scant evidence. The other point is economic issues - are they comparing poor whites with poor blacks? Most poor people just don't have access to good lawyers. It just may be that whites have more economic advantage. Which is the case generally.


                        Excuse me, which western country has a higher murder rate than the US for example?
                        I heard something about the Sage of the Bronx, Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, has proclaimed that the sudden very sharp spike in violent crime is the result of the bad economy, declaring that it is supposedly forcing people to shoplift bread to feed their starving families.

                        Of course she neglects to explain what that has to do with the increase in violent crime. Last time I checked it wasn't folks supposedly stealing bread who are brutally assaulting, murdering, and raping others for it

                        I'm always still in trouble again

                        "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                        "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                        "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                          Umm...we are discussing race and experiencing racism. You want me to be focused on the fungus infecting my squash plants instead?
                          Obviously and unquestionably Trump's fault

                          I'm always still in trouble again

                          "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                          "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                          "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by seanD View Post
                            No, I'm using BOTH anecdotal/personal evidence (something you certainly can't claim) and I'm using statistical facts (that seer is using and you can't seem to refute) in combination.
                            Umm...yeah...I can provide a great deal of anecdotal and personal evidence. It will not be "this happened to me," but there is a good deal I could relate about what has happened in the course of raising our sons: the first time the police were called on my son was when he was 8. His crime was playing with his toys under a tree in the back yard of the home we were visiting, something my sister's son had been doing the day before - with no such call being placed. We have many, many, many such anecdotes from our own lives and the lives of the adoption support community we were part of as our boys grew.

                            And the "statistical facts" Seer is providing are indeed "statistical facts." The problem is not with the facts, but rather with how he is applying them and how they do NOT address the data I have provided. Instead, they attempt to skew the discussion into familiar right-wing memes that have nothing to do with the case I am putting forward. The distribution of crimes between populations is irrelevant to the claim (backed with by the USCC) concerning disproportionate sentencing based on race (as well as gender).
                            The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                            I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                              I'm talking about your whole journey - not "the discussion". It seems to me that your whole outlook on life is too "race centrist". Peoples is peoples. Even Pete says so.



                              "Hey. I tell you what is. Big city, hmm? Live. Work, huh? But. Is not city open. Only peoples. Peoples is peoples. No is buildings. Is tomatoes, huh? Is peoples, is dancing, is music, is potatoes. So, peoples is peoples. Okay?"
                              You're getting a skewed view, probably due to the context of this discussion. At no point was I attempting to convey "my whole outlook on life." If you are attempting to convert my observations on race in the U.S. to make them "my whole view on life," then you are making more of them than I am. If you want to talk about child rearing, the word "race" will probably not surface. If you want to talk about ethics in business, my general philosophy of life, or the joy I took in constructing my home, race will probably not factor. Since we are talking about race, my philosophies about race are what I am putting forward.

                              BTW - my core personal philosophy is "leave it better than you found it."
                              The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                              I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                                Obviously and unquestionably Trump's fault
                                I suspected as much!
                                The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                                I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                                Comment

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