Conservative values/principles

[seer]

I am not surprised...

After I went through all that trouble! Never happy!

[seanD]

Sorry Carp, I don't believe you would change your views no matter the argument.

He's definitely insistent, even about things where it turns out he's completely wrong.

[seer]

He's definitely insistent, even about things where it turns out he's completely wrong.

No really?

[carpedm9587]

It is absolutely AMAZING* to me that so many black families seem to shake themselves free from those long ago shackles and take personal responsibilities for their lives.

I too am amazed by the number of black families throughout history that have risen above and moved beyond the harms done to their race. But we are not talking about individual families - we are talking about trends within a demographic and the origins of the ills that permeate so much of that demographic.

*it's not amazing to me at all -- I see it all around me every single day.

As do I - and I also see the remnants of what 500+ years of slavery and racism has done to the black community. You cannot have that many years of targeted harm without leaving long-lasting effects. To simply expect EVERYONE in the black community to have the fortune and resilience of the portion of that community that HAS transcended their history is simply unreasonable - and unjust.

It's analogous to going to the Special Olympics and saying, "Look at George Eyser, Carlo Orlandi, Oliver Halassy, Karoly Takacs, Lis Hartel, Neroli Fairhall, Jeff Float, and Jim Abbott! Why can't ya'll be like them?"

And no - I am not saying black people are disabled. That is where the analogy fails. I'm saying black people as a group have been historically, and in some cases currently, disadvantaged. We should be taking steps to correct those systemic problems in the present, and removing the disadvantages introduced by history.

[Cow Poke]

Yeah...not so much. Think about it, CP. For four hundred years, slavery.....

Four hundred, Four hundred, do I hear FIVE.....

... I also see the remnants of what 500+ years of slavery and racism....

FIVE, now we're going for SIX, do I hear Six.....

[carpedm9587]

That blacks commit more crime does address the points you've made. If blacks commit the majority of violent crime (including against each other -- once again the data supporting my belief that it's self-inflicted), then it stands to reason blacks will have higher negative encounters with police, and cops will likely police black neighborhoods more aggressively not because of sentimental reasons or racism, but because of data -- you know, that thing called science.

Unfortunately, the data about trend lines WITHIN the police force as a function of race don't support your conclusion. A white police officer is five times as likely as a black police officer to draw and use their firearm when responding to the SAME black neighborhoods.

Poverty is at best circumstantial and debatable, at worst irrelevant here. Hispanics and American natives have about the same or higher levels of poverty. And isn't it ironic that many, if not most of the cities with the highest poverty/crime rates are run by Democrats, so one could also posit an argument that much of this is attributed to liberal politics.

Correlation is not causation. However, when a pattern repeats itself worldwide and over multiple decades, the evidence is pretty strong. Those who are poor are more likely to transgress the law. Sometimes it is simply to get the basics needed for life. Sometimes it is out of anger or frustration. Sometimes it is literally to BE incarcerated where food and shelter are a given. The reasons vary - but the poverty is a consistent theme.

That does not make it the only factor influencing crime rates and violence. There are others, as has been noted. Liberal policies? I'd like to see you make that case. I doubt you can. Indeed, most of the data shows that when many liberal ideals are implemented, crime actually goes down. You see, concepts like rehabilitation programs, education in jails, and many of the other things put forward have PROVEN track records of success. But so many on the right consistently say "why are we spending all this money on those evil people?" and work to defund the programs that the programs are often left inadequately supported and they end up failing. Often they will hunt around until they find one person who was part of those programs and then hurt someone, and blast that fact out as if it is the norm. The same old tactics with the same old results. Then the private jail industry gets into the mix, also pushed by mostly the right, and ALL impetus to reduce recidivism ends. After all - every inmate is more revenue, so why on earth would a private jailer do much of anything to reduce the likelihood of a return to jail?

Point being, poverty is not a sound argument to explain black crime discrepancy.

It is perfectly sound - and your dismissal doesn't change that. It is not the ONLY explanation - but it provides a piece of the puzzle. Time and time again, when poverty is reduced, crime is likewise reduced.

So all that is left for me to explain this is to base it on my "anecdotal" experiences of being a minority and living in a minority community and conclude it's cultural and self-inflicted.

Your anecdotes do not an argument make.

And I love how you hand-wave the fact we have numerous black elected government officials. Whites make up 60% of the US population; blacks 13%. Where is the national systemic racism? How and why are these black folks being elected?

So let's look at that data. Remember that the 107th Congress was 2001 and the 116th is today:

Native Americans - 0.9% of U.S. Population - 0.19% of 107th Congress - 0.75% of 116th Congress
Asian-Americans - 5.4% of U.S. Population - 1.31% of 107th Congress - 3.18% of 116th Congress
Hispanic-Americans - 16.7% of U.S. Population - 3.55% of 107th Congress - 8.04% of 116th Congress
Black-Americans - 13.4% of U.S. Population - 6.73% of 107th Congress - 10.47% of 116th Congress

Do you see a pattern? I do. We have made progress - but we are not there yet. There is no year on record when the distribution of congress aligned with the population - and white people, especially older white men, have always held a disproportionate number of the offices.

And I repeat - you can have people in office and STILL have systemic racism - the two are not mutually exclusive. It depends how the population is distributed. Republican gerrymandering has increasingly created predominantly black districts in many states, which tend to elect black representatives. If you look at where these black members of congress are coming from, a huge portion of them come from such districts.

Or is it logical to conclude that racism is but a tiny portion of the white population, contrary to the type of systemic racism being claimed by BLM?

The evidence that racism is systemic is widespread and easy to find, Sean. As noted - we have seen it surface in AirBnB, Lyft, Uber, studies on how resumes are processed, studies of the police force, studies of how college entrance applications a processed, and the list goes on and on. You have to put your head deeply in the sand to ignore it.

[carpedm9587]

Carp I'm using the terms found in studies, including government studies on race and crime. I don't see how you can dismiss the conclusion that the purple are more violent. At least as I said, in this particular time. If you go back to the 20s and 30s you might find that the Italians were committing a disproportionate amount of murders.

I'll let my previous post stand. It is becoming clear to me that you are (intentionally?) blind to the point being made.

I did, so be specific where did they control for past non-violent criminal history. Please quote...

No need, Seer. You are reading a "not" into the statement that is not there. All I'll be doing is reading back to you the exact paragraph you posted. Since you seem willfully predisposed to reject what is right in front of you, it doesn't seem a very good use of time.

Oh please, it is clear that the higher crime rates more than offset the higher percentage of black deaths! Of course you are going to see more aggressive policing where crime is higher. Which have nothing to do with race, but everything to do with behavior. If these neighborhoods has the same crime rate as your neighborhood do you think you would see this disparity? Of course not.

Unfortunately, the data does not support your conclusion...especially when you look at white vs. black responses within the police force to the same contexts. Sorry, Seer - you appear to so WANT there not to be bias that you are simply ignoring evidence that is right in front of your nose, and buying into statistical slight-of-hand designed to paint a portrait that the statistics themselves do not paint.

It certainly is telling:Any evidence to the contrary fails to take into account crime rates and civilian behavior before and during interactions with police.

So you agree that is the case at least for Philly?

I have no reason to doubt that Philly is an outlier - if that is what the data says. It does nothing to support your case. Most data sets have outliers.

[carpedm9587]

Four hundred, Four hundred, do I hear FIVE.....

FIVE, now we're going for SIX, do I hear Six.....

Actually, I goofed on this one. I assumed that slavery started with some of the earliest colonies, which date back to the late 1400s. That makes almost 400 years to the Civil War. When you add Jim Crow and the period through the Civil Rights era, you arrive at 500. However, apparently the first slaves brought to the U.S. date to the early 1600s, so about 250 years to the Civil War and then another 100 years before the Civil Rights era.

And the Civil Rights era was not a panacea. It was not a light switch that suddenly ended the harm. It was a moment in which more legal protections went into place - but in many parts of the country the powers already in place again found any way they could to continue to hold to power and disenfranchise minorities - especially black ones. That continues to this day in many parts of our country. Systemic racism is not a uniform blanket across the land: it's a lumpy old comforter that is worn to close to nothing in some places, and thick and heavy in others.

[seanD]

Unfortunately, the data about trend lines WITHIN the police force as a function of race don't support your conclusion. A white police officer is five times as likely as a black police officer to draw and use their firearm when responding to the SAME black neighborhoods.



Correlation is not causation. However, when a pattern repeats itself worldwide and over multiple decades, the evidence is pretty strong. Those who are poor are more likely to transgress the law. Sometimes it is simply to get the basics needed for life. Sometimes it is out of anger or frustration. Sometimes it is literally to BE incarcerated where food and shelter are a given. The reasons vary - but the poverty is a consistent theme.

That does not make it the only factor influencing crime rates and violence. There are others, as has been noted. Liberal policies? I'd like to see you make that case. I doubt you can. Indeed, most of the data shows that when many liberal ideals are implemented, crime actually goes down. You see, concepts like rehabilitation programs, education in jails, and many of the other things put forward have PROVEN track records of success. But so many on the right consistently say "why are we spending all this money on those evil people?" and work to defund the programs that the programs are often left inadequately supported and they end up failing. Often they will hunt around until they find one person who was part of those programs and then hurt someone, and blast that fact out as if it is the norm. The same old tactics with the same old results. Then the private jail industry gets into the mix, also pushed by mostly the right, and ALL impetus to reduce recidivism ends. After all - every inmate is more revenue, so why on earth would a private jailer do much of anything to reduce the likelihood of a return to jail?



It is perfectly sound - and your dismissal doesn't change that. It is not the ONLY explanation - but it provides a piece of the puzzle. Time and time again, when poverty is reduced, crime is likewise reduced.



Your anecdotes do not an argument make.



So let's look at that data. Remember that the 107th Congress was 2001 and the 116th is today:

Native Americans - 0.9% of U.S. Population - 0.19% of 107th Congress - 0.75% of 116th Congress
Asian-Americans - 5.4% of U.S. Population - 1.31% of 107th Congress - 3.18% of 116th Congress
Hispanic-Americans - 16.7% of U.S. Population - 3.55% of 107th Congress - 8.04% of 116th Congress
Black-Americans - 13.4% of U.S. Population - 6.73% of 107th Congress - 10.47% of 116th Congress

Do you see a pattern? I do. We have made progress - but we are not there yet. There is no year on record when the distribution of congress aligned with the population - and white people, especially older white men, have always held a disproportionate number of the offices.

And I repeat - you can have people in office and STILL have systemic racism - the two are not mutually exclusive. It depends how the population is distributed. Republican gerrymandering has increasingly created predominantly black districts in many states, which tend to elect black representatives. If you look at where these black members of congress are coming from, a huge portion of them come from such districts.



The evidence that racism is systemic is widespread and easy to find, Sean. As noted - we have seen it surface in AirBnB, Lyft, Uber, studies on how resumes are processed, studies of the police force, studies of how college entrance applications a processed, and the list goes on and on. You have to put your head deeply in the sand to ignore it.

Whelp, there's nothing really left for me to rebut here, as everything's been covered. I'll just say that the lie you and BLM are perpetuating in this country is ending up in carnage, violence, and death in streets. If that's the country you want to bring your children up in, keep propagating this obvious lie. The societal consequences of what's happening and what will happen is on you.

[Mountain Man]

I would consider the entire history of black people (including life as an African-American) to be the cultural heritage of black people, just as I would consider the history of Italians (including life as an Italian-American) to be the cultural heritage of Italians.

OK, so what exactly is "African-American culture"? Are there certain subsets of that culture that you chose not to highlight in your boys' upbringing?

[seer]

I'll let my previous post stand. It is becoming clear to me that you are (intentionally?) blind to the point being made.

No I'm not, look, as far as the stats go Whites are more violent than Asians or Native Americans. I'm not sure why you have a problem with stating those facts.

No need, Seer. You are reading a "not" into the statement that is not there. All I'll be doing is reading back to you the exact paragraph you posted. Since you seem willfully predisposed to reject what is right in front of you, it doesn't seem a very good use of time.

Then show me where they controlled for non-violent criminal history. I read the study in your link, it is no where to be found. They did control for violent criminal history but even there they only had one year of past stats to use.

Unfortunately, the data does not support your conclusion...especially when you look at white vs. black responses within the police force to the same contexts. Sorry, Seer - you appear to so WANT there not to be bias that you are simply ignoring evidence that is right in front of your nose, and buying into statistical slight-of-hand designed to paint a portrait that the statistics themselves do not paint.

You basically have two choices:

1. Generally there is higher police aggression in black neighborhoods because police are largely racist.
2. Generally there is higher police aggression in black neighborhoods because there is more violent crime.

It seems that the higher violent crime rate is the obvious choice. Especially since the worse crime ridden cities are run by Democrats, so what you are saying in effect is that Democrats are overseeing and supporting racist police forces.

I have no reason to doubt that Philly is an outlier - if that is what the data says. It does nothing to support your case. Most data sets have outliers.

Except you have no reason to believe it is an outlier, and of course it supports my case. Behavior not race is driving this. Why you refuse to entertain that possibility is beyond me.

[carpedm9587]

Whelp, there's nothing really left for me to rebut here, as everything's been covered. I'll just say that the lie you and BLM are perpetuating in this country is ending up in carnage, violence, and death in streets. If that's the country you want to bring your children up in, keep propagating this obvious lie. The societal consequences of what's happening and what will happen is on you.

Your opinion is duly noted. Thanks for the chat.

[carpedm9587]

No I'm not, look, as far as the stats go Whites are more violent than Asians or Native Americans. I'm not sure why you have a problem with stating those facts.

That explanation has been made numerous times. You are either (intentionally?) blind to it, or it makes no difference to you. Either reflects badly on you.

Then show me where they controlled for non-violent criminal history. I read the study in your link, it is no where to be found. They did control for violent criminal history but even there they only had one year of past stats to use.

I'm leaving this to you, Seer. You are inserting something into the study that is not there. I'm not going to walk you page by page through the study to show you something that is not there. Not to mention, the point you're trying to make is entirely irrelevant.

You basically have two choices:

1. Generally there is higher police aggression in black neighborhoods because police are largely racist.
2. Generally there is higher police aggression in black neighborhoods because there is more violent crime.

It seems that the higher violent crime rate is the obvious choice. Especially since the worse crime ridden cities are run by Democrats, so what you are saying in effect is that Democrats are overseeing and supporting racist police forces.

Again, you are arguing against a point I have not made - and ignoring the one I have. This argument of yours does not explain the elevated use of force by white officers in black neighborhoods when compared to black officers in the same black neighborhoods. Nor does it deal with the repeated finding of harsher sentencing for black perpetrators than white under the same circumstances. You are showing a degree of willful blindness I have come to expect from you - which really makes further exchanges pointless.

Except you have no reason to believe it is an outlier, and of course it supports my case. Behavior not race is driving this. Why you refuse to entertain that possibility is beyond me.

Of course I have reason to believe it is an outlier - it does not align with the nation data. That is the very definition of an outlier. And the tactic of picking an outlier to "support my case" is a common one used by many on the right. It happens over and over again. Do you want to say immigration is bad? Find an immigrant who has killed a citizen. Don't pay attention to the bulk of the data that shows crime is actually lower in the immigrant population than the norm. Want to show that the earth is not warming? Point to New England having an extraordinarily cold winter or one glaciers that is expanding. Ignore the fact that the rest of the world is ABOVE the average and the GLOBAL average is rising and the vast majority of glaciers are shrinking. Want to show that early release programs are dangerous? Find an early release inmate that has killed someone and parade it on all the news channels. Ignore the fact that early release reduces recidivism by an significant amount. Want to end spending money on education in prisons? Find one prisoner who took the courses and cycled in and out of prison continuously. Ignore the data that shows education in prison systems overall reduces recidivism and more than pays for its own cost in reduced prison costs.

It's a common tactic of so many on the right. It happens over and over and over again - and you're doing it again here. It is, at best, a logical error. At worst, it's just downright deceptive.

At this point Seer - unless you have something new to add - I don't see a point in continuing the discussion. It is sliding into the same, usual dynamic. I'll leave you to declare the win if you wish. It apparently brings MM some amount of satisfaction - so perhaps it will do the same for you.

[carpedm9587]

OK, so what exactly is "African-American culture"? Are there certain subsets of that culture that you chose not to highlight in your boys' upbringing?

Choose? No. We simply took every opportunity to expose them to black history, opinions of black leaders, and to include many environments in our travel plans that were not predominantly white. Their exposure to a white-dominated culture was pretty much assured given our home in Vermont.

The terms "black culture" and "white culture" are somewhat misleading. "Black cultures" and "white cultures" might be more accurate. Just as there are numerous cultures that have been created by people with light skin, there are also multiple cultures created by people with dark skin. Providing for as wide a variety of these experiences a possible has been our goal.

[seer]

That explanation has been made numerous times. You are either (intentionally?) blind to it, or it makes no difference to you. Either reflects badly on you.

If I say that statistically whites are more violent than Asians or Native Americans is that racist? How so?

I'm leaving this to you, Seer. You are inserting something into the study that is not there. I'm not going to walk you page by page through the study to show you something that is not there. Not to mention, the point you're trying to make is entirely irrelevant.

If you don't control for all past criminal history then the conclusions are flawed.

Again, you are arguing against a point I have not made - and ignoring the one I have. This argument of yours does not explain the elevated use of force by white officers in black neighborhoods when compared to black officers in the same black neighborhoods. Nor does it deal with the repeated finding of harsher sentencing for black perpetrators than white under the same circumstances. You are showing a degree of willful blindness I have come to expect from you - which really makes further exchanges pointless.

OK, where is your study on black officers compared to white officers? And the sentencing conclusion is flawed UNTIL you control for ALL past criminal history which your link did not, no control for non-violent criminal history. https://www.manhattan-institute.org/...cism-1479.html

Of course I have reason to believe it is an outlier - it does not align with the nation data. That is the very definition of an outlier. And the tactic of picking an outlier to "support my case" is a common one used by many on the right. It happens over and over again. Do you want to say immigration is bad? Find an immigrant who has killed a citizen. Don't pay attention to the bulk of the data that shows crime is actually lower in the immigrant population than the norm. Want to show that the earth is not warming? Point to New England having an extraordinarily cold winter or one glaciers that is expanding. Ignore the fact that the rest of the world is ABOVE the average and the GLOBAL average is rising and the vast majority of glaciers are shrinking. Want to show that early release programs are dangerous? Find an early release inmate that has killed someone and parade it on all the news channels. Ignore the fact that early release reduces recidivism by an significant amount. Want to end spending money on education in prisons? Find one prisoner who took the courses and cycled in and out of prison continuously. Ignore the data that shows education in prison systems overall reduces recidivism and more than pays for its own cost in reduced prison costs.

Philly is pretty representative of large American cities. But you won't even entertain an opposing view. You are closed minded Carp.

It's a common tactic of so many on the right. It happens over and over and over again - and you're doing it again here. It is, at best, a logical error. At worst, it's just downright deceptive.

At this point Seer - unless you have something new to add - I don't see a point in continuing the discussion. It is sliding into the same, usual dynamic. I'll leave you to declare the win if you wish. It apparently brings MM some amount of satisfaction - so perhaps it will do the same for you.

Yes now not only am I a racist, I'm deceptive. Nice to live in your own little bubble.