Originally posted by carpedm9587
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostUmm...yeah...I can provide a great deal of anecdotal and personal evidence. It will not be "this happened to me," but there is a good deal I could relate about what has happened in the course of raising our sons: the first time the police were called on my son was when he was 8. His crime was playing with his toys under a tree in the back yard of the home we were visiting, something my sister's son had been doing the day before - with no such call being placed. We have many, many, many such anecdotes from our own lives and the lives of the adoption support community we were part of as our boys grew.
And the "statistical facts" Seer is providing are indeed "statistical facts." The problem is not with the facts, but rather with how he is applying them and how they do NOT address the data I have provided. Instead, they attempt to skew the discussion into familiar right-wing memes that have nothing to do with the case I am putting forward. The distribution of crimes between populations is irrelevant to the claim (backed with by the USCC) concerning disproportionate sentencing based on race (as well as gender).
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostYou're getting a skewed view, probably due to the context of this discussion.
At no point was I attempting to convey "my whole outlook on life."
If you are attempting to convert my observations on race in the U.S. to make them "my whole view on life," then you are making more of them than I am.
If you want to talk about child rearing, the word "race" will probably not surface. If you want to talk about ethics in business, my general philosophy of life, or the joy I took in constructing my home, race will probably not factor. Since we are talking about race, my philosophies about race are what I am putting forward.
BTW - my core personal philosophy is "leave it better than you found it."
(yeah, just pushing buttons)The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostSeer - violent crime skews to the poor, nonviolent crime includes the whole world of "white collar" crime so skews to the wealthy. As for the rest, my comments were about crime overall. When you narrow to violent crimes, poverty is only ONE of the defining issues. Home environment is another. Rural/Suburban/Urban is a third. NONE of the factors impacting even violent crime is indexed to sin color. The color of a person's skin has ZERO impact on their propensity to violence - which is what makes the constant association of violent crime with black skin part of the whole world of systemic/implicit racism.
I don't know what you think you linked, but it was not a WSJ article.
Here is the original:https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-myt...sm-11591119883
Where on earth do you get THAT? What do you think "similarly situated white male offenders" means? Do you seriously think that the US Sentencing Commission would make such a ridiculous error? I suggest you review the attached report.
This is the largest study on the issue, and racism is not a factor:
Racial and Ethnic Disparities in Crime and Criminal Justice in the United States
https://dash.harvard.edu/handle/1/3226952
Most of them are in South America. The U.S. doesn't even make the top ten.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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If poverty was at the root then crime rates ought to have been much higher in black communities during the 30s, 40s or 50s.
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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Originally posted by rogue06 View PostIf poverty was at the root then crime rates ought to have been much higher in black communities during the 30s, 40s or 50s.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seanD View PostDo I really need to state here that adopting black children is not the same as actually living and experiencing black culture in a black community? I mean I really need to point that out?
Originally posted by seanD View PostLike MM pointed out earlier, black culture is more than just one's race, in fact, not even necessarily race at all. Race just happens to be a byproduct of the culture, and this is easily proven by the fact there are many blacks, successful or not, rich and poor, that don't commit violent crime.
Originally posted by seanD View PostAnd your anecdotal and personal evidence may or may not be attributed to racism. No one's denying racism and discrimination doesn't exist AT ALL. That's just a sad fact of life and human nature.
If that is what you think that post says - then you have badly misinterpreted it. It says nothing of the kind. I also have never heard a single member of BLM make that claim on an institution basis. Are there cops that do this? I would not be surprised to find there are. There are ugly people in every walk of life. The institutional/systemic/implicit racism of most police forces is not THAT kind of racism.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostThat happens. Without seeing your big goofy face and seeing facial expressions and body language....
It's daffy...
Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostOf course not - but a sample!
Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostThis is me... backing off. [ insert appropriate emoji here ]
ETA: I guess not...
Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostDone.
Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostIt's not just a philosophy with me - it's a way of life!
(yeah, just pushing buttons)
But that is to be expected, since she installed the damn things!The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by seer View PostThe reason why we focus on violent crime is because that will incur longer jail time, and more aggressive police response. OK, so now poverty is only one of the issues. I'm glad you said that because I thought you were saying that poor people could not be moral.
Originally posted by seer View PostAnd I have not said that skin color is the problem, but there certainly could be cultural problems. But the point is, given the higher crime rates it is no wonder we see more aggressive policing. That is based on behavior not systemic police racism.
Originally posted by seer View PostYes it was, you just can not read it behind their pay wall. So I gave you a link where you can read it.
Here is the original:https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-myt...sm-11591119883
Originally posted by seer View PostFrom your link:Violence in an offender’s criminal history does not appear to account for any of the demographic differences in sentencing
Originally posted by seer View PostThis is the largest study on the issue, and racism is not a factor:
Racial and Ethnic Disparities in Crime and Criminal Justice in the United States
https://dash.harvard.edu/handle/1/3226952
Originally posted by seer View PostI said western countries...The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostNo - you don't. As I said - I cannot speak from personal experience in the sense of "being black." I can only speak from personal experience rooted in the intimate relationship with my children, just as your white parent was far better able to speak to the personal experience of "being black" due to the intimate relationship he/she had with you and your black parent. It does not substitute for "being black." It just gets us a little closer than those who lack those experiences.
Ummm... race is a byproduct of culture? Seriously?
This is an odd comment. It is made often by people from the right - yet my experience is that every time a situation is pointed to as a racism problem, it is immediately denied. So there is a (grudging) general acceptance of "racism exists" but then it is followed by a case-by-case denial of racism.
If that is what you think that post says - then you have badly misinterpreted it. It says nothing of the kind. I also have never heard a single member of BLM make that claim on an institution basis. Are there cops that do this? I would not be surprised to find there are. There are ugly people in every walk of life. The institutional/systemic/implicit racism of most police forces is not THAT kind of racism.
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Originally posted by seer View PostYet it wasn't and blacks were treated much worse back then - racism was much worse.
BTW - is there a particular reason that you chose the image of a documented antisemite as your avatar?The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by seanD View PostIt's not just about being black (and note I only pointed that out to you so you wouldn't readily resort to the "you're just a racist" cheap tactic the left always resorts to in order to discredit a contrarian and stifle discussion), it's actually living within the culture of a black community.
Originally posted by seanD View PostThere are many blacks that grew up in wealthy homes that have no clue about western black culture. I'm speaking from firsthand experience here and you're not. I say black disparity and crime is primarily a self-inflicted issue that occurs from within that culture. You echo the cries of BLM and claim it's because of white systemic racism, yet neither my experience (even if you want to brush it off as anecdotal) nor the statistics support your claim. As far as the right being prone to deny cases of racism, as you also claim, it's likely because racism has been so diluted by the political racism hoax you and BLM keep pushing. And that's a sad thing, because real instances of racism does exist and is clouded out by the political fraud we currently see being propagated by the left today.
The racism that the folks at BLM are responding to is real - despite your protestations to the contrary. And you can blame the denials of so many on the right to the existence of racism on the actions of the left and people like the BLM participants all you want - but it strikes me as simply deflecting blame. After all, that permits you to continue to deny it with no need to look to your own beliefs and the foundation on which they are built.
That's my impression of you and others like you, Sean: you don't actually examine the belief or their foundation when they are challenged: you simply attack the challenger. I've seen you do it over and over again here, even when the person you are speaking with is simply stating a POV. If the POV does not align with yours, they are immediately treated as "Leftist scum" with one dismissal or another.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostDespite all of our efforts to continually expose them to western black culture, there was never any getting away from the fact that we were white with a strong white western cultural background, including an Italian mother and a father of French Canadian descent.
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostSo first, when I see the type of hyperbolic language (emphasized above) you are prone to using, I know I am dealing with someone who has gone a bit off the deep edge of the political spectrum. "The left" is not a monolithic body/group anymore than "the right" is. Even if it was, few groups would "always" do any particular thing. Heck, you'd be hard put to find an individual that would "always" do any particular thing. In my experience, such hyperbole is indicative of someone that has adopted a prejudicial view of the people against whom they are railing.
My sons are two such boys. Despite all of our efforts to continually expose them to western black culture, there was never any getting away from the fact that we were white with a strong white western cultural background, including an Italian mother and a father of French Canadian descent. But another spate of hyperbole (again emphasized) suggests you are a little unhinged on this topic. "No clue" is an absolute. No daily personal experience, absolutely. No clue? You attempt to paint this as a black and white and to deny that anyone who is not black and has not lived it daily can have any sense of the experience whatsoever. That is simply patently false. We're not dealing with a binary issue here. The slug occupying the oval office probably truly has "no clue." Then there are people with a casual relationship with a few black people who are slightly less clueless. Then there are people who have long-term intimate relationships with black people who have a bit more of a clue. Then there are people like me, who not only have children who are black, but who have worked within black communities both here and abroad, and have invested time and effort to not only know the communities but to understand the issues - who have even more of a clue. And at the other end of the continuum are the black people living and breathing daily within that culture who know it best of all. My knowledge/experience may be slight compared to theirs, but it is not zero. This is just an attempt to do exactly what you are accusing "the left" of doing: "discredit a contrarian and stifle discussion."
The racism that the folks at BLM are responding to is real - despite your protestations to the contrary. And you can blame the denials of so many on the right to the existence of racism on the actions of the left and people like the BLM participants all you want - but it strikes me as simply deflecting blame. After all, that permits you to continue to deny it with no need to look to your own beliefs and the foundation on which they are built.
That's my impression of you and others like you, Sean: you don't actually examine the belief or their foundation when they are challenged: you simply attack the challenger. I've seen you do it over and over again here, even when the person you are speaking with is simply stating a POV. If the POV does not align with yours, they are immediately treated as "Leftist scum" with one dismissal or another.
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