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  • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    Umm...yeah...I can provide a great deal of anecdotal and personal evidence. It will not be "this happened to me," but there is a good deal I could relate about what has happened in the course of raising our sons: the first time the police were called on my son was when he was 8. His crime was playing with his toys under a tree in the back yard of the home we were visiting, something my sister's son had been doing the day before - with no such call being placed. We have many, many, many such anecdotes from our own lives and the lives of the adoption support community we were part of as our boys grew.

    And the "statistical facts" Seer is providing are indeed "statistical facts." The problem is not with the facts, but rather with how he is applying them and how they do NOT address the data I have provided. Instead, they attempt to skew the discussion into familiar right-wing memes that have nothing to do with the case I am putting forward. The distribution of crimes between populations is irrelevant to the claim (backed with by the USCC) concerning disproportionate sentencing based on race (as well as gender).
    Not to mention the underlying reasons for the higher crime rates among the black community.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
      Umm...yeah...I can provide a great deal of anecdotal and personal evidence. It will not be "this happened to me," but there is a good deal I could relate about what has happened in the course of raising our sons: the first time the police were called on my son was when he was 8. His crime was playing with his toys under a tree in the back yard of the home we were visiting, something my sister's son had been doing the day before - with no such call being placed. We have many, many, many such anecdotes from our own lives and the lives of the adoption support community we were part of as our boys grew.

      And the "statistical facts" Seer is providing are indeed "statistical facts." The problem is not with the facts, but rather with how he is applying them and how they do NOT address the data I have provided. Instead, they attempt to skew the discussion into familiar right-wing memes that have nothing to do with the case I am putting forward. The distribution of crimes between populations is irrelevant to the claim (backed with by the USCC) concerning disproportionate sentencing based on race (as well as gender).
      Do I really need to state here that adopting black children is not the same as actually living and experiencing black culture in a black community? I mean I really need to point that out? Like MM pointed out earlier, black culture is more than just one's race, in fact, not even necessarily race at all. Race just happens to be a byproduct of the culture, and this is easily proven by the fact there are many blacks, successful or not, rich and poor, that don't commit violent crime. And your anecdotal and personal evidence may or may not be attributed to racism. No one's denying racism and discrimination doesn't exist AT ALL. That's just a sad fact of life and human nature. The argument is that it's not systemic or institutional to the point white cops are going out and hunting down blacks for no other reason other than just based on their racist views, as BLM is claiming and you claimed in post #129.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
        You're getting a skewed view, probably due to the context of this discussion.
        That happens. Without seeing your big goofy face and seeing facial expressions and body language....

        At no point was I attempting to convey "my whole outlook on life."
        Of course not - but a sample!

        If you are attempting to convert my observations on race in the U.S. to make them "my whole view on life," then you are making more of them than I am.
        This is me... backing off. [ insert appropriate emoji here ]

        If you want to talk about child rearing, the word "race" will probably not surface. If you want to talk about ethics in business, my general philosophy of life, or the joy I took in constructing my home, race will probably not factor. Since we are talking about race, my philosophies about race are what I am putting forward.
        Done.

        BTW - my core personal philosophy is "leave it better than you found it."
        It's not just a philosophy with me - it's a way of life!

        (yeah, just pushing buttons)
        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
          Seer - violent crime skews to the poor, nonviolent crime includes the whole world of "white collar" crime so skews to the wealthy. As for the rest, my comments were about crime overall. When you narrow to violent crimes, poverty is only ONE of the defining issues. Home environment is another. Rural/Suburban/Urban is a third. NONE of the factors impacting even violent crime is indexed to sin color. The color of a person's skin has ZERO impact on their propensity to violence - which is what makes the constant association of violent crime with black skin part of the whole world of systemic/implicit racism.
          The reason why we focus on violent crime is because that will incur longer jail time, and more aggressive police response. OK, so now poverty is only one of the issues. I'm glad you said that because I thought you were saying that poor people could not be moral. And I have not said that skin color is the problem, but there certainly could be cultural problems. But the point is, given the higher crime rates it is no wonder we see more aggressive policing. That is based on behavior not systemic police racism.


          I don't know what you think you linked, but it was not a WSJ article.
          Yes it was, you just can not read it behind their pay wall. So I gave you a link where you can read it.

          Here is the original:https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-myt...sm-11591119883

          Where on earth do you get THAT? What do you think "similarly situated white male offenders" means? Do you seriously think that the US Sentencing Commission would make such a ridiculous error? I suggest you review the attached report.
          From your link:Violence in an offender’s criminal history does not appear to account for any of the demographic differences in sentencing

          This is the largest study on the issue, and racism is not a factor:

          Racial and Ethnic Disparities in Crime and Criminal Justice in the United States


          https://dash.harvard.edu/handle/1/3226952


          Most of them are in South America. The U.S. doesn't even make the top ten.
          I said western countries...
          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

          Comment


          • If poverty was at the root then crime rates ought to have been much higher in black communities during the 30s, 40s or 50s.

            I'm always still in trouble again

            "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
            "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
            "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

            Comment


            • n/t

              Comment


              • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                If poverty was at the root then crime rates ought to have been much higher in black communities during the 30s, 40s or 50s.
                Yet it wasn't and blacks were treated much worse back then - racism was much worse.
                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                Comment


                • Originally posted by seanD View Post
                  Do I really need to state here that adopting black children is not the same as actually living and experiencing black culture in a black community? I mean I really need to point that out?
                  No - you don't. As I said - I cannot speak from personal experience in the sense of "being black." I can only speak from personal experience rooted in the intimate relationship with my children, just as your white parent was far better able to speak to the personal experience of "being black" due to the intimate relationship he/she had with you and your black parent. It does not substitute for "being black." It just gets us a little closer than those who lack those experiences.

                  Originally posted by seanD View Post
                  Like MM pointed out earlier, black culture is more than just one's race, in fact, not even necessarily race at all. Race just happens to be a byproduct of the culture, and this is easily proven by the fact there are many blacks, successful or not, rich and poor, that don't commit violent crime.
                  Ummm... race is a byproduct of culture? Seriously?

                  Originally posted by seanD View Post
                  And your anecdotal and personal evidence may or may not be attributed to racism. No one's denying racism and discrimination doesn't exist AT ALL. That's just a sad fact of life and human nature.
                  This is an odd comment. It is made often by people from the right - yet my experience is that every time a situation is pointed to as a racism problem, it is immediately denied. So there is a (grudging) general acceptance of "racism exists" but then it is followed by a case-by-case denial of racism.

                  Originally posted by seanD View Post
                  The argument is that it's not systemic or institutional to the point white cops are going out and hunting down blacks for no other reason other than just based on their racist views, as BLM is claiming and you claimed in post #129.
                  If that is what you think that post says - then you have badly misinterpreted it. It says nothing of the kind. I also have never heard a single member of BLM make that claim on an institution basis. Are there cops that do this? I would not be surprised to find there are. There are ugly people in every walk of life. The institutional/systemic/implicit racism of most police forces is not THAT kind of racism.
                  The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                  I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                    That happens. Without seeing your big goofy face and seeing facial expressions and body language....
                    I do NOT have a goofy face...

                    It's daffy...

                    Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                    Of course not - but a sample!
                    My views on racism and race are certainly part of my general "philosophy of life." But they are only a small part. There are other things I consider more core to my beliefs.

                    Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                    This is me... backing off. [ insert appropriate emoji here ]
                    The appropriate one would be... :toilet: (hopefully that produces the one with the little guy sitting on the john)

                    ETA: I guess not...

                    Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                    Done.
                    Not until I tell you so! I just saw the horse twitch. It needs a few more

                    Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                    It's not just a philosophy with me - it's a way of life!

                    (yeah, just pushing buttons)
                    The only one who can regularly push my buttons is my wife.

                    But that is to be expected, since she installed the damn things!
                    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by seer View Post
                      The reason why we focus on violent crime is because that will incur longer jail time, and more aggressive police response. OK, so now poverty is only one of the issues. I'm glad you said that because I thought you were saying that poor people could not be moral.
                      When did I EVER say that? Part of the problem with our discussions, Seer, is you insert meaning into my posts I never intended or even considered. You do it on a regular basis. Misunderstanding happens now and again, but with you it happens regularly. And then when I try to correct your misunderstanding, you cling to your misconceptions and insist I think/mean things I've never thought or said. It makes the entire process of discussion with you more than a little tedious. Sparko basically does the same thing. MM and Pix as well, but those two long since have demonstrated they are primarily interested in trolling, so it's to be expected.

                      Originally posted by seer View Post
                      And I have not said that skin color is the problem, but there certainly could be cultural problems. But the point is, given the higher crime rates it is no wonder we see more aggressive policing. That is based on behavior not systemic police racism.
                      Seer, when you and others like you persist in associating crime or violence with "black people," you contribute to the systemic/implicit racism present in our society. You are associating an action (violence) with the characteristic of a person that has NOTHING to do with the action. It communicates "black people are more violent." It feeds into the worldview of the true racists of our country, and perpetuates an image of black people that is simply untrue. You are responsible for your choice of words.

                      Originally posted by seer View Post
                      Yes it was, you just can not read it behind their pay wall. So I gave you a link where you can read it.

                      Here is the original:https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-myt...sm-11591119883
                      You are right that I will not be able to read behind a pay wall. The article you linked had no reference to the WSJ, had no references that I could find (only three "related links"), and contained information that was irrelevant to the point I had made. It doe snot explain the findings of the USCC (and other studies) that was the heart of my argument. So I don't see how your article addresses the core problem.

                      Originally posted by seer View Post
                      From your link:Violence in an offender’s criminal history does not appear to account for any of the demographic differences in sentencing
                      Yes - exactly. So unlike your claim that they ignored the offenders criminal history, the study explains that criminal history was examined and was determined to not be a factor in the demographic differences in sentencing. That is not the same as "they didn't control for previous arrest records."

                      Originally posted by seer View Post
                      This is the largest study on the issue, and racism is not a factor:

                      Racial and Ethnic Disparities in Crime and Criminal Justice in the United States


                      https://dash.harvard.edu/handle/1/3226952
                      So let me get this right: you are referencing a 23-year-old study that cites data from 25+ years ago to refute an argument made by a one year old study implemented by the U.S. government on its own justice system? Your study was made before the Clinton three-strikes initiative and a LOT of racial history. How on earth do you think this in any way applies?

                      Originally posted by seer View Post
                      I said western countries...
                      Seer, take a good look at a map - and see if you can determine if South America is or is not a collection of "Western Countries." Last I checked, it was firmly in the Western Hemisphere.
                      The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                      I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                        No - you don't. As I said - I cannot speak from personal experience in the sense of "being black." I can only speak from personal experience rooted in the intimate relationship with my children, just as your white parent was far better able to speak to the personal experience of "being black" due to the intimate relationship he/she had with you and your black parent. It does not substitute for "being black." It just gets us a little closer than those who lack those experiences.



                        Ummm... race is a byproduct of culture? Seriously?



                        This is an odd comment. It is made often by people from the right - yet my experience is that every time a situation is pointed to as a racism problem, it is immediately denied. So there is a (grudging) general acceptance of "racism exists" but then it is followed by a case-by-case denial of racism.



                        If that is what you think that post says - then you have badly misinterpreted it. It says nothing of the kind. I also have never heard a single member of BLM make that claim on an institution basis. Are there cops that do this? I would not be surprised to find there are. There are ugly people in every walk of life. The institutional/systemic/implicit racism of most police forces is not THAT kind of racism.
                        It's not just about being black (and note I only pointed that out to you so you wouldn't readily resort to the "you're just a racist" cheap tactic the left always resorts to in order to discredit a contrarian and stifle discussion), it's actually living within the culture of a black community. There are many blacks that grew up in wealthy homes that have no clue about western black culture. I'm speaking from firsthand experience here and you're not. I say black disparity and crime is primarily a self-inflicted issue that occurs from within that culture. You echo the cries of BLM and claim it's because of white systemic racism, yet neither my experience (even if you want to brush it off as anecdotal) nor the statistics support your claim. As far as the right being prone to deny cases of racism, as you also claim, it's likely because racism has been so diluted by the political racism hoax you and BLM keep pushing. And that's a sad thing, because real instances of racism does exist and is clouded out by the political fraud we currently see being propagated by the left today.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by seer View Post
                          Yet it wasn't and blacks were treated much worse back then - racism was much worse.
                          Yes - worse to the point that black people who stepped out of line were regularly lynched. Peak years for the KKK were 1915-1944. So you wonder why black crime was less of an issue back then? It was the age of Jim Crow. And black people were still widely incarcerated. You see, there is only one remaining, constitutionally protected, opportunity for slavery: the prison system. So if you can get a significant part of the black (especially male) population in jail, you don't have to entirely abandon slavery. Isn't that convenient? That was a major driving force behind Jim Crow and all of its associated laws.

                          BTW - is there a particular reason that you chose the image of a documented antisemite as your avatar?
                          The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                          I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by seanD View Post
                            It's not just about being black (and note I only pointed that out to you so you wouldn't readily resort to the "you're just a racist" cheap tactic the left always resorts to in order to discredit a contrarian and stifle discussion), it's actually living within the culture of a black community.
                            So first, when I see the type of hyperbolic language (emphasized above) you are prone to using, I know I am dealing with someone who has gone a bit off the deep edge of the political spectrum. "The left" is not a monolithic body/group anymore than "the right" is. Even if it was, few groups would "always" do any particular thing. Heck, you'd be hard put to find an individual that would "always" do any particular thing. In my experience, such hyperbole is indicative of someone that has adopted a prejudicial view of the people against whom they are railing.

                            Originally posted by seanD View Post
                            There are many blacks that grew up in wealthy homes that have no clue about western black culture. I'm speaking from firsthand experience here and you're not. I say black disparity and crime is primarily a self-inflicted issue that occurs from within that culture. You echo the cries of BLM and claim it's because of white systemic racism, yet neither my experience (even if you want to brush it off as anecdotal) nor the statistics support your claim. As far as the right being prone to deny cases of racism, as you also claim, it's likely because racism has been so diluted by the political racism hoax you and BLM keep pushing. And that's a sad thing, because real instances of racism does exist and is clouded out by the political fraud we currently see being propagated by the left today.
                            My sons are two such boys. Despite all of our efforts to continually expose them to western black culture, there was never any getting away from the fact that we were white with a strong white western cultural background, including an Italian mother and a father of French Canadian descent. But another spate of hyperbole (again emphasized) suggests you are a little unhinged on this topic. "No clue" is an absolute. No daily personal experience, absolutely. No clue? You attempt to paint this as a black and white and to deny that anyone who is not black and has not lived it daily can have any sense of the experience whatsoever. That is simply patently false. We're not dealing with a binary issue here. The slug occupying the oval office probably truly has "no clue." Then there are people with a casual relationship with a few black people who are slightly less clueless. Then there are people who have long-term intimate relationships with black people who have a bit more of a clue. Then there are people like me, who not only have children who are black, but who have worked within black communities both here and abroad, and have invested time and effort to not only know the communities but to understand the issues - who have even more of a clue. And at the other end of the continuum are the black people living and breathing daily within that culture who know it best of all. My knowledge/experience may be slight compared to theirs, but it is not zero. This is just an attempt to do exactly what you are accusing "the left" of doing: "discredit a contrarian and stifle discussion."

                            The racism that the folks at BLM are responding to is real - despite your protestations to the contrary. And you can blame the denials of so many on the right to the existence of racism on the actions of the left and people like the BLM participants all you want - but it strikes me as simply deflecting blame. After all, that permits you to continue to deny it with no need to look to your own beliefs and the foundation on which they are built.

                            That's my impression of you and others like you, Sean: you don't actually examine the belief or their foundation when they are challenged: you simply attack the challenger. I've seen you do it over and over again here, even when the person you are speaking with is simply stating a POV. If the POV does not align with yours, they are immediately treated as "Leftist scum" with one dismissal or another.
                            The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                            I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                              Despite all of our efforts to continually expose them to western black culture, there was never any getting away from the fact that we were white with a strong white western cultural background, including an Italian mother and a father of French Canadian descent.
                              Quick question here: Why is it important for you to "expose" your sons to western black culture?

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                                So first, when I see the type of hyperbolic language (emphasized above) you are prone to using, I know I am dealing with someone who has gone a bit off the deep edge of the political spectrum. "The left" is not a monolithic body/group anymore than "the right" is. Even if it was, few groups would "always" do any particular thing. Heck, you'd be hard put to find an individual that would "always" do any particular thing. In my experience, such hyperbole is indicative of someone that has adopted a prejudicial view of the people against whom they are railing.



                                My sons are two such boys. Despite all of our efforts to continually expose them to western black culture, there was never any getting away from the fact that we were white with a strong white western cultural background, including an Italian mother and a father of French Canadian descent. But another spate of hyperbole (again emphasized) suggests you are a little unhinged on this topic. "No clue" is an absolute. No daily personal experience, absolutely. No clue? You attempt to paint this as a black and white and to deny that anyone who is not black and has not lived it daily can have any sense of the experience whatsoever. That is simply patently false. We're not dealing with a binary issue here. The slug occupying the oval office probably truly has "no clue." Then there are people with a casual relationship with a few black people who are slightly less clueless. Then there are people who have long-term intimate relationships with black people who have a bit more of a clue. Then there are people like me, who not only have children who are black, but who have worked within black communities both here and abroad, and have invested time and effort to not only know the communities but to understand the issues - who have even more of a clue. And at the other end of the continuum are the black people living and breathing daily within that culture who know it best of all. My knowledge/experience may be slight compared to theirs, but it is not zero. This is just an attempt to do exactly what you are accusing "the left" of doing: "discredit a contrarian and stifle discussion."

                                The racism that the folks at BLM are responding to is real - despite your protestations to the contrary. And you can blame the denials of so many on the right to the existence of racism on the actions of the left and people like the BLM participants all you want - but it strikes me as simply deflecting blame. After all, that permits you to continue to deny it with no need to look to your own beliefs and the foundation on which they are built.

                                That's my impression of you and others like you, Sean: you don't actually examine the belief or their foundation when they are challenged: you simply attack the challenger. I've seen you do it over and over again here, even when the person you are speaking with is simply stating a POV. If the POV does not align with yours, they are immediately treated as "Leftist scum" with one dismissal or another.
                                BLM is a lie. BLM is not responding to any real issue; they're responding to social media illusion, hype and MSM sensationalism (though there are good reasons to suspect something politically deeper is at play, but that can't be readily proven). It rests on a false premise and you've been shown this over and over. We just had 8 years of a sitting black president, yet this country is supposedly plagued by white systemic racism. How many wealthy and successful black folks are there out there now? How many black representatives are in the House, the Senate, mayors, city council people, lawyers, doctors, professors, yet this mythical white systemic racism is supposed to be keeping these successful black folks down. Anti-black systemic racism is not a thing and this can be demonstrated in any innumerable ways, whether from raw statistics, personal experience, or just common sense. If you want to hand-wave all this like you always do, go ahead (you've certainly done it before in face of facts thrown right at you). The hyperbole reflects my personal disgust (and it literally sickens me physically) with this issue and the fact you and the left keep perpetuating this lie to the point it's creating unnecessary division and chaos in this country.

                                Comment

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