Srebrenica

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

And what was that in response to?

Can you not look back at the thread yourself?

Hypatia of Alexandria, your name sake?

Ah I see. Thank you.

[Christianbookworm]

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Sorry, didn't see your post about not engaging with the flame war bait.

[Maranatha]

People should speak out against any regime or nation that supports [directly or covertly] injustice and brutality.

If only liberals and basketball players would...

[siam]

People should speak out against any regime or nation that supports [directly or covertly] injustice and brutality.

I agree

Yet, in these situations, we are dealing with a massive imbalance of power....The Serbs had access to the military stocks of the former Yugoslav army---while the Bosnians did not. An arms embargo by the U.N. prevented both sides from weaponizing but this also retained the massive imbalance of power.

The U.N. peacekeeping forces were also constrained---they could not actively "protect" the Bosnians---because they were supposed to be "neutral"---only do humanitarian work.

https://www.nytimes.com/1994/11/05/w...e-embargo.html
An arms embargo imposed on the former Yugoslavia in 1991 froze the Bosnian Serbs' weapons superiority in place because Serbs controlled the Yugoslav Army and dipped into its arsenal to supply the Bosnian Serbs.
The Serbs used this advantage to take 70 percent of Bosnian territory, routing the nascent Bosnian Army and terrorizing Muslim civilians.

Their superiority in artillery and tanks remains but now appears to have been offset by the success of the Bosnian Government in providing basic weapons to a large army operating in a mountainous terrain where mobility can outweigh armor.

Today we are also facing this dilemma---Uighurs of China and Rohingya of Burma have asked for weapons to defend themselves against state power---but is this right or wrong?....and what other options can give better solutions?

And another factor to understand is the abuse of the toxic ideology of religio/ethno-nationalism ---that a territory "belongs" to a group that identifies with a particular religion/culture. It is state-tribalism....and because of this, violence is "legalized" (The Holocaust was also legal/state violence) The abuse of Christianity and nationalism played a role in what led upto srebrenica....?....

[Bill the Cat]

My daughter went to college with a girl from Kosovo. She and her mother escaped the attempted genocide there and she has told us some VERY gruesome stories about what happened to her family.

[KingsGambit]

If only liberals and basketball players would...

I feel like this is a missed opportunity for Christians, since there are some in sports. When the NBA had its dust up over Hong Kong, the only NBA player who was vocal in favor of human rights was Enes Kanter... a Muslim.

[siam]

Other questions that this conflict brings up are---what is a "nation" and what role does "religio-philosophy"---insofar as it directs ethico-moral foundations---play in the resistance to oppression......and the right of citizens to arms.....

Yogoslavia was made up of diverse ethno-religous peoples who were (forcibly) held together by the dictator Tito. There were the Serbs who were Orthodox Christians, the Croats and Slovenians who were Roman Catholic and the Bosnians and Albanians (Kosovo) who were Muslims. Slovenia easily became independent in the 10 days war because it was militarily matched, Yugoslav soldiers of Slovenian ethnicity defected, and the Yogoslav army had no motivation to fight.
The Vatican also supported both Slovenia and Croatia. Croatia initially did not have the military power that the Serbian army had and Serbia used the Croatian-Serbs inside Croatia to fight for them. However, volunteer foreign (mostly Catholic) fighters from the U.K. France and other countries came to fight for Croatia.(---approx 450+) Croatia also had arms factories and soon built up their militia and with the help of arms supplies from the West (Germany, U.S...etc). despite an arms embargo.

The religio-ethnic make up of Bosnia-Herzogovinia was (approx) 44% Muslim Bosniaks, 32% Orthodox Serbs and 17% Catholic Croats. The Bosniaks and Croats in B-H were supplied arms from Croatia but these were limited and did not match the power of the Serbian forces. The Muslims did not have a Vatican behind them, but they called on foreign fighters for help---and some of the Afghan war veterans went in.

In military might---the Bosniaks were weak and therefore perhaps suffered the majority of casualities....?....had they been better armed to defend themselves---would the outcome have been different?

To militarize "religion" is toxic---we have seen this in the crusades and then in ISIS/Daesh---but to do nothing invites genocide.

Who decides what a nation is?---previously, national boundaries were often arbitrarily decided and incompatible groups found themselves as citizens of a "nation" This idea of "nation"--and who gets to live in it and who does not---and who decides this and on what basis---might need to be revisited...?....and the related question---what makes up an "identity"?

The U.S. declaration of Independence gives the right of governance to the people---and by this right they can separate from a government they find "oppressive".
When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

therefore... 2nd amendment of the U.S. gives its citizens the right to bear arms.---with the intent to give citizens the means to fight back against an oppressive government. But this---as we can all see today---brings with it damaging consequences.
So how do we balance the power between people/citizens and state/nation?

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

Other questions that this conflict brings up are---what is a "nation" and what role does "religio-philosophy"---insofar as it directs ethico-moral foundations---play in the resistance to oppression......and the right of citizens to arms.....

Yogoslavia was made up of diverse ethno-religous peoples who were (forcibly) held together by the dictator Tito. There were the Serbs who were Orthodox Christians, the Croats and Slovenians who were Roman Catholic and the Bosnians and Albanians (Kosovo) who were Muslims. Slovenia easily became independent in the 10 days war because it was militarily matched, Yugoslav soldiers of Slovenian ethnicity defected, and the Yogoslav army had no motivation to fight.
The Vatican also supported both Slovenia and Croatia. Croatia initially did not have the military power that the Serbian army had and Serbia used the Croatian-Serbs inside Croatia to fight for them. However, volunteer foreign (mostly Catholic) fighters from the U.K. France and other countries came to fight for Croatia.(---approx 450+) Croatia also had arms factories and soon built up their militia and with the help of arms supplies from the West (Germany, U.S...etc). despite an arms embargo.

The religio-ethnic make up of Bosnia-Herzogovinia was (approx) 44% Muslim Bosniaks, 32% Orthodox Serbs and 17% Catholic Croats. The Bosniaks and Croats in B-H were supplied arms from Croatia but these were limited and did not match the power of the Serbian forces. The Muslims did not have a Vatican behind them, but they called on foreign fighters for help---and some of the Afghan war veterans went in.

In military might---the Bosniaks were weak and therefore perhaps suffered the majority of casualities....?....had they been better armed to defend themselves---would the outcome have been different?

To militarize "religion" is toxic---we have seen this in the crusades and then in ISIS/Daesh---but to do nothing invites genocide.

Who decides what a nation is?---previously, national boundaries were often arbitrarily decided and incompatible groups found themselves as citizens of a "nation" This idea of "nation"--and who gets to live in it and who does not---and who decides this and on what basis---might need to be revisited...?....and the related question---what makes up an "identity"?

The U.S. declaration of Independence gives the right of governance to the people---and by this right they can separate from a government they find "oppressive".
When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

therefore... 2nd amendment of the U.S. gives its citizens the right to bear arms.---with the intent to give citizens the means to fight back against an oppressive government. But this---as we can all see today---brings with it damaging consequences.
So how do we balance the power between people/citizens and state/nation?

To address any of the above we need to go back far beyond the Eastern [or Balkan] Question! That entire region has been the buffer zone between two world religions and empires for centuries.

[Maranatha]

I feel like this is a missed opportunity for Christians, since there are some in sports. When the NBA had its dust up over Hong Kong, the only NBA player who was vocal in favor of human rights was Enes Kanter... a Muslim.

I feel it is a typical liberal mindset and response, and it shows why they are not to be taken serious on moral matters.