Smithsonian: You Are Racist If...

[Leonhard]

Really Leonhard, how is the whole page not racist? Just exchange the word whiteness with blackness and see where that leads...

I'm only addressing the chart because Rumtumtggr asked me to address it and post what I thought about it. The page as a whole I largely support, though I still think it could have laid some more groundwork first. You can't exchange whiteness for blackness as if the terms are symmetrical here.

[seer]

I'm only addressing the chart because Rumtumtggr asked me to address it and post what I thought about it. The page as a whole I largely support, though I still think it could have laid some more groundwork first. You can't exchange whiteness for blackness as if the terms are symmetrical here.

Sorry, defining or pigeonholing any person or group by the color of their skin is the very definition of racism.

[Sparko]

The overall gist of that web page and graphic are that White culture is bad and should be rejected. The title of the graphic was "Aspects and Assumptions of Whiteness and White culture" - They want us to examine our "privilege" and understand that PoC don't have those same values.

Except of course they DO. Most of the items on that list are good and descent values that everyone good and decent hold in the USA. Except the radical socialist left of course. To them things like individualism, independence, respect, the nuclear family, science, hard work are all signs of "capitalist oppression"

[seanD]

I honestly think this was just a misguided chart. I was suggested to look at this yesterday by Rumtumtggr, and I browsed it very quickly. I was a bit familiar with Robin DiAngelo's work, but this part of the Smithsonian NMAAHC was a rather cluttered presentation. I think the intention was good but the way that chart is read by people shows how problematic it was. They've taken it down after the response which I think was a good idea. I'm not sure where to begin with the chart, in terms of communications it does such a horrible bad job I don't know where to begin.

Even if I agree with the main ideas presented to a large extent, this way of presenting it has caused severe confusion.

From my experience of these circles the object isn't to argue that white culture is bad. Self-reliance, or delayed gratification for instance aren't bad traits. The same with many of the other values.

The problem is how it that it has no alternatives to compare it to, and that leaves it as feeling like an attack. It is also difficult for me to extract precisely what their idea is in this infographic. The best guess I could make with it is to show which values and aspects of society that have been dominated by white normativity, or that these particular values are considered the default which can be problematic depending on what it is. However a discussion of individualism contra solidarity is not at all the same as a discussion of whether white people are primarily the ones controlling the goals and values of science (i.e which questions are interesting to have answered), or whether black or native american history is appropriately represented in school books, and so forth...

It's just too different items to be put together like that, we don't have apples here to compare, it's a whole fruit basket!

I can see people are guessing a lot at motives. And here we are bias. I certainly am trying to find the good reasons a person would have in creating a graphic like that, but I find I can't defend its structure. It draws disparate ideas together, it communicates unintentionally that these values are 'bad' or can't be had by other groups, it offers no alternatives to contrast with.

In general its just a mess I can't support, and I think the National Museum of African American History and Culture was good at listening to the incoming criticism and responding. This also comes in the tail of other criticisms of that museum that I'm trying to verify, such as their staff and curators being almost exclusively white. This smells to me of a disconnect between that museum and the local black community, which is ironic.

Minorities don't live up to the standards and qualities in that chart. That's what they're saying. Some folks see it as they're saying whites should be rejected. Well. sure, that's what they're essentially saying. But they're also implying minorities fall short of those standards, which is just as racist against minorities. Like I said before, if I didn't know who initially created that chart, I'd assume it was a group of white supremacists themselves celebrating the good qualities of their "white culture" and denigrating other races because they fall short.

[DivineOb]

The overall gist of that web page and graphic are that White culture is bad and should be rejected.

Where do they indicate that those things are 'bad'? Where do they indicate that those things should be 'rejected'? Point me to something explicit if you're going to make such a strong statement.

Except of course they DO. Most of the items on that list are good and descent values that everyone good and decent hold in the USA. Except the radical socialist left of course. To them things like individualism, independence, respect, the nuclear family, science, hard work are all signs of "capitalist oppression"

Let's say this is true (I think you're inaccurately representing the "radical left"). So what? What does it cost you to re-evaluate your beliefs and verify that they stand up under scrutiny. I do that all the time.

[seer]

Where do they indicate that those things are 'bad'? Where do they indicate that those things should be 'rejected'? Point me to something explicit if you're going to make such a strong statement.

Let's say this is true (I think you're inaccurately representing the "radical left"). So what? What does it cost you to re-evaluate your beliefs and verify that they stand up under scrutiny. I do that all the time.

Tell me Divine which attributes would you assign to "blackness?"

[oxmixmudd]

See Jim, you don't want to deal with the principles of the people you are supporting. This isn't about race as must as it is about destroying western culture. Going forward Jim don't defend the family, Christianity, science, rational thinking, property rights, decision making, planning for the future, delaying gratification, etc... These are all vestiges of "whiteness" and therefore suspect. What ever you think about Trump and his policies the policies of these people and their goals are infinity worse and evil.

As I said, I don't believe the point of the chart was to define those things as 'bad'. The point was just to define common characteristics of white culture in America.

The larger issue they are trying to deal with is 'white privilege' and the oppression of black people by a culture that has systemic racism embedded within it. As Leonhard pointed out, it looks like that was mostly just a very poorly constructed means of engaging people on one aspect of those issues.

[DivineOb]

Tell me Divine which attributes would you assign to "blackness?"

That question commits a category error.

Don't be such a snowflake.

[seanD]

As I said, I don't believe the point of the chart was to define those things as 'bad'. The point was just to define common characteristics of white culture in America.

The larger issue they are trying to deal with is 'white privilege' and the oppression of black people by a culture that has systemic racism embedded within it. As Leonhard pointed out, it looks like that was mostly just a very poorly constructed means of engaging people on one aspect of those issues.

So to define minority culture in America you would describe it as being everything opposite of those standards and qualities described on that cart, right? That's the problem. There IS racism and white supremacy, but it's on the side of the liberals, as I've always believed, which is why they're the most outspoken and loudest about it. They're projecting.

[seer]

That question commits a category error.

Don't be such a snowflake.

Nonsense, there is no category error. The fact is you won't answer the question. It is just as racist to ask about the attributes of "blackness" as it is to assign attributes to "whiteness." There are no behavioral characteristics for blackness any more than there are for whiteness.

[Sparko]

Where do they indicate that those things are 'bad'? Where do they indicate that those things should be 'rejected'? Point me to something explicit if you're going to make such a strong statement.

Going by the overall tone of the web page that this graphic appeared on. It is clear that the graphic was a list of examples of "white culture" and "whiteness" that white people accept as "normal" but need to be reevaluated as "microaggressions" and "racism"


some excerpts from the page:

Whiteness (and its accepted normality) also exist as everyday microaggressions toward people of color. Acts of microaggressions include verbal, nonverbal, and environmental slights, snubs or insults toward nonwhites. Whether intentional or not, these attitudes communicate hostile, derogatory, or harmful messages.
...
Racism is perpetuated by deeming whiteness as superior and other racial and ethnic groups as inferior. The prevalence of white dominant culture and racism leads to an internalized racial superiority for those who adhere to it.
...
Confronting Whiteness
If you identify as white, acknowledging your white racial identity and its privileges is a crucial step to help end racism. Facing your whiteness is hard and can result in feelings of guilt, sadness, confusion, defensiveness, or fear.

[seer]

As I said, I don't believe the point of the chart was to define those things as 'bad'. The point was just to define common characteristics of white culture in America.

What do you mean by white culture? Is there yellow culture in China? Black culture in Africa, Semitic culture in the middle east? And of course those things were bad - if not why even mention them? And if they were trying to present a contrast are they saying that blacks were not doing those things or couldn't fine value in those beliefs and behaviors?

The larger issue they are trying to deal with is 'white privilege' and the oppression of black people by a culture that has systemic racism embedded within it. As Leonhard pointed out, it looks like that was mostly just a very poorly constructed means of engaging people on one aspect of those issues.

White privilege is bull crap - Obama's daughters have more privilege than my grand-kids could even dream of.

[oxmixmudd]

So to define minority culture in America you would describe it as being everything opposite of those standards and qualities described on that cart, right? That's the problem. There IS racism and white supremacy, but it's on the side of the liberals, as I've always believed, which is why they're the most outspoken and loudest about it. They're projecting.

No - that is ridiculous. But that misconception is why most of you are up in arms about it.

And no, the racism in our society crosses all party and ideological lines. But a large proportion of those that are overtly racist align themselves much more closely with conservative politics (Republican or in some cases Libertarian) and are equally hostile to 'liberal' politics (Democrat) as you or many of those posting here.

[seanD]

No - that is ridiculous. But that misconception is why most of you are up in arms about it.

And no, the racism in our society crosses all party and ideological lines. But a large proportion of those that are overtly racist align themselves much more closely with conservative politics (Republican or in some cases Libertarian) and equally hostile to 'liberal' politics (Democrat) as you or many of those posting here.

Then why do they say it represents white supremacy? No, it doesn't represent white supremacy, it represents qualities and standards that would make for a successful community of any people, race, color, or creed. If you go to other countries, even underdeveloped countries, you find these qualities among all races because it's how a civilization thrives and succeeds. The only folks that would say such a thing is white supremacists that believed these qualities represent "whiteness," and that's what the chart clearly implies. You keep saying over and over the history shows racism closely aligned with the conservative party, but that isn't how I see it when I look at actual racist policies (the convo we just had before). Almost every policy that devastated minority communities (including black infanticide today) is endorsed or was created by the left. It explains why most of the cities that have the highest crime rates and poverty are democratic run. Whether that's intentional or not is a matter of debate.

[seer]

And no, the racism in our society crosses all party and ideological lines. But a large proportion of those that are overtly racist align themselves much more closely with conservative politics (Republican or in some cases Libertarian) and equally hostile to 'liberal' politics (Democrat) as you or many of those posting here.

Jim do you believe the Founding principles of this country, the Declaration, Constitution, Bill of Rights, etc... are good things.