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Thread: ID and coronavirus conspiracy theories

  1. #61
    tWebber lee_merrill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLurch View Post
    They're actually not. They're based on the appearance of one very specific pathway to resistance.
    But if the pathway is selected, then that makes Behe's calculation a lower bound, since he is interested in non-selectable mutations.

    We don't know if other pathways are possible, or even that they've evolved and we've not detected them. We also don't know how often this particular pathway might have evolved independently.
    There is uncertainty involved, yet we have enough information to make some conclusions, based on examining two instances (HIV and malaria) to see what evolution can actually do.

    What about HIV indicates it should be under selection to evolve new protein-protein interactions? It's a highly successful virus that seems to be doing just fine as it is.
    Why should anything evolve, then? But HIV could for instance become more of a benign parasite and less of a disease, for instance.

    In contest, the evolution of HIV from SIV opened up an enormous new reservoir of potential hosts. If you want to look at interesting evolutionary events, you look there.
    You just answered your own question?

    Behe hasn't. What does that tell us?
    Behe has looked for new function, though, and based his estimates on what he sees.

    No, he doesn't look at the malarial parasite. He looks at a single gene where mutations enable drug resistance. That's it.
    He looks at other medications that required a single mutation to confer resistance, and finds that these instances occur at the rate expected, about the square root of the two-mutation chloroquine resistance.

    I have no idea what "double-CCC" means. it's not a scientific terms, so you probably need to define it.
    two required non-selectable mutations Behe calls a Chloroquine Complexity Cluster (or CCC), because the development of resistance to chloroquine in the malaria parasite required two simultaneous mutations. The development of resistance happened, but it required a tremendous number of parasites to find it. So a "double CCC" Behe concludes, is outside the range of evolution.

    Then why haven't they done so? And how would they identify them?
    That would be four non-selectable mutations or more.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

  2. #62
    tWebber lee_merrill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rogue06 View Post
    And that has absolutely nothing to do with your assertion that

    mutations have to be simultaneously present


    is what is meant when evolution deniers pretend that all the mutations must take place simultaneously
    Well, again, independent events have the same probability regardless of the timing of those events. So it's convenient to speak of simultaneous mutations, because that indicates that the mutations have to all be simultaneously present. But no one is thinking all the mutations have to occur at exactly the same moment in time.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

  3. #63
    tWebber lee_merrill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLurch View Post
    Incidentally, a small bit of searching has indicated that chloroquine resistance seems to have evolved at least three times independently:
    "Here, we provide conclusive evidence that mutant haplotypes of the pfcrt gene product of Asian, African, or South American origin confer chloroquine resistance with characteristic verapamil reversibility and reduced chloroquine accumulation."
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2954758/

    There might be a fourth, per CDC documents. Obviously, that says something about the probability of these mutations arising that, from what i've seen of Behe's arguments, isn't considered by him.
    Yet we read:

    Source: Edge of Evolution

    CCCs do happen, if the population numbers supply them. In recent years chloroquine resistance has popped up a number of times independently.

    © Copyright Original Source



    Blessings,
    Lee
    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

  4. #64
    tWebber lee_merrill's Avatar
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    In rereading Edge of Evolution, I discovered I misrepresented Behe's edge:

    Source: Edge of Evolution

    Still, I think it’s better to err on the side of caution, allow room for the odd exception like sickle hemoglobin, and draw the line at complexes of three kinds of proteins (that is, two binding sites), as I do in Figure 7.4.

    © Copyright Original Source


    So the edge is at two new binding sites (or as mentioned previously, a double-CCC), not just one.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

  5. #65
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    In rereading Edge of Evolution, I discovered I misrepresented Behe's edge:

    Source: Edge of Evolution

    Still, I think it’s better to err on the side of caution, allow room for the odd exception like sickle hemoglobin, and draw the line at complexes of three kinds of proteins (that is, two binding sites), as I do in Figure 7.4.

    © Copyright Original Source


    So the edge is at two new binding sites (or as mentioned previously, a double-CCC), not just one.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    The Edge of Evolution: The Search for the Limits of Darwinism by Michael J. Behe is not reputable scientific reference. First and foremost unethical statistics.

    The Lurch has documented this.
    Last edited by shunyadragon; 07-25-2020 at 02:23 PM.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

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    Frank

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  6. #66
    tWebber TheLurch's Avatar
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    Ok, you're misrepresenting and misunderstanding things in such a scattershot manner that it's getting hard to understand what's going on. I'm going to try to focus back on the central things:

    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    But if the pathway is selected, then that makes Behe's calculation a lower bound, since he is interested in non-selectable mutations.
    There's no such thing as a "non-selectable mutation". Any mutation that happens has the potential to be selected in the right context. Since you've defined an intelligently designed sequence through a nonsense term, it's not possible to work with that.

    So again, give me a rigorous definition of something that can be searched for in a collection of genomes using an algorithm that would be evidence of ID. Not just some waffly term that doesn't make sense, like non-selectable mutation. Something that you can use to design an algorithm to search for it.

    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    two required non-selectable mutations Behe calls a Chloroquine Complexity Cluster (or CCC), because the development of resistance to chloroquine in the malaria parasite required two simultaneous mutations.
    Again, false. It does not require simultaneous mutations. If you keep saying things that are clearly false, i'm going to ask you to leave this thread.
    "Any sufficiently advanced stupidity is indistinguishable from trolling."

  7. #67
    tWebber lee_merrill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLurch View Post
    There's no such thing as a "non-selectable mutation". Any mutation that happens has the potential to be selected in the right context.
    Well, "non-selectable in the current context" would be implied.

    Again, false. It does not require simultaneous mutations. If you keep saying things that are clearly false, i'm going to ask you to leave this thread.
    That is, two mutations that are required to be simultaneously present.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

  8. #68
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    Well, "non-selectable in the current context" would be implied.


    That is, two mutations that are required to be simultaneously present.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    There hundreds if not more present simultaeously present.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

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