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    tWebber lee_merrill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unitarian101 View Post
    (1) There is no constructio ad sensum in John 14:25. The antecedent of ἐκεῖνος is παράκλητος. τὸ πνεῦμα is rather in apposition to παράκλητος.
    Well, how about this verse, then?

    "13 ὅταν δὲ ἔλθῃ ἐκεῖνος, τὸ πνεῦμα τῆς ἀληθείας, ⸂ὁδηγήσει ὑμᾶς⸃ ⸄ἐν τῇ ἀληθείᾳ πάσῃ⸅· οὐ γὰρ λαλήσει ἀφʼ ἑαυτοῦ, ἀλλʼ ὅσα ⸆ ⸀ἀκούσει λαλήσει καὶ τὰ ἐρχόμενα ἀναγγελεῖ ὑμῖν." (John 16:13)

    (2) It is grammatically impossible for ἡ ζωὴ to be the antecedent of ὃ ( neuter). The pronoun, if ἡ ζωὴ is the antecedent, must either be feminine ( ἥ , to match with grammatical gender ) or else masculine ( ὅ , to match for actual gender ).
    But I meant in meaning, not grammatically, "the life" is "that which is from the beginning" etc.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

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    tWebber lee_merrill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unitarian101 View Post
    (1) There is no constructio ad sensum in John 14:25. The antecedent of ἐκεῖνος is παράκλητος. τὸ πνεῦμα is rather in apposition to παράκλητος.
    Well, how about this verse, then?

    "ὅταν δὲ ἔλθῃ ἐκεῖνος, τὸ πνεῦμα τῆς ἀληθείας, ⸂ὁδηγήσει ὑμᾶς⸃ ⸄ἐν τῇ ἀληθείᾳ πάσῃ⸅· οὐ γὰρ λαλήσει ἀφʼ ἑαυτοῦ, ἀλλʼ ὅσα ⸆ ⸀ἀκούσει λαλήσει καὶ τὰ ἐρχόμενα ἀναγγελεῖ ὑμῖν." (John 16:13)

    (2) It is grammatically impossible for ἡ ζωὴ to be the antecedent of ὃ ( neuter). The pronoun, if ἡ ζωὴ is the antecedent, must either be feminine ( ἥ , to match with grammatical gender ) or else masculine ( ὅ , to match for actual gender ).
    But I meant in meaning, not grammatically, "the life" is "that which is from the beginning" etc.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

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    tWebber Hypatia_Alexandria's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unitarian101 View Post
    (1) There is no constructio ad sensum in John 14:25. The antecedent of ἐκεῖνος is παράκλητος. τὸ πνεῦμα is rather in apposition to παράκλητος.

    (2) It is grammatically impossible for ἡ ζωὴ to be the antecedent of ὃ ( neuter). The pronoun, if ἡ ζωὴ is the antecedent, must either be feminine ( ἥ , to match with grammatical gender ) or else masculine ( ὅ , to match for actual gender ).
    I am thoroughly enjoying this!
    "Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful" Attrib. Seneca 4 BCE - 65 CE

  4. #44
    tWebber lee_merrill's Avatar
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    Trying to get my post to appear...
    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
    I am thoroughly enjoying this!
    You're welcome...

  6. Amen Hypatia_Alexandria amen'd this post.
  7. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    Well, how about this verse, then?

    "ὅταν δὲ ἔλθῃ ἐκεῖνος, τὸ πνεῦμα τῆς ἀληθείας, ⸂ὁδηγήσει ὑμᾶς⸃ ⸄ἐν τῇ ἀληθείᾳ πάσῃ⸅· οὐ γὰρ λαλήσει ἀφʼ ἑαυτοῦ, ἀλλʼ ὅσα ⸆ ⸀ἀκούσει λαλήσει καὶ τὰ ἐρχόμενα ἀναγγελεῖ ὑμῖν." (John 16:13)

    The antecedent of ἐκεῖνος here is παράκλητος in John 16:7, and not τὸ πνεῦμα τῆς ἀληθείας. ἐκεῖνος is the subject of this sentence, τὸ πνεῦμα τῆς ἀληθείας is in apposition to ἐκεῖνος.

    But I meant in meaning, not grammatically, "the life" is "that which is from the beginning" etc.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    Then the apostle would have used ὃς ( constructo ad sensum) , to bring out the meaning that ἡ ζωὴ was a "person" (was a "who") who was from the beginning. In a nutshell, you're shooting yourself in the foot by arguing that ἡ ζωὴ is the antecedent of the neuter in 1 John 1:1. In other words, you are arguing (unwittingly ofcourse) that the author believed ἡ ζωὴ to be a thing rather than person in the beginning by taking ἡ ζωὴ as the antecedent. The difficulty Trinitarians have here is that whether the antecedent is taken to be ὁ λόγος or else ἡ ζωὴ, the same problem against it's personality persists, since the relative pronoun the author used here is neuter .

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    tWebber lee_merrill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unitarian101 View Post
    The antecedent of ἐκεῖνος here is παράκλητος in John 16:7, and not τὸ πνεῦμα τῆς ἀληθείας. ἐκεῖνος is the subject of this sentence, τὸ πνεῦμα τῆς ἀληθείας is in apposition to ἐκεῖνος.
    Well, it doesn't matter, this is still constructio ad sensum:

    "A grammatical construction in which a word’s inflexion is determined by the semantics of the word or words with which it associates, in contravention of what is required by grammar."


    Then the apostle would have used ὃς ( constructo ad sensum) , to bring out the meaning that ἡ ζωὴ was a "person" (was a "who") who was from the beginning.
    "The life appeared" is sufficient to show that this is a person, and we are fine with referring to a person as "that", as in our English translations of 1 John 1:1.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

  9. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    Well, it doesn't matter, this is still constructio ad sensum:

    "A grammatical construction in which a word’s inflexion is determined by the semantics of the word or words with which it associates, in contravention of what is required by grammar."
    It is not an example of ad sensum construction because the pronoun is ἐκεῖνος and it's antecedent is also masculine, namely παράκλητος.



    "The life appeared" is sufficient to show that this is a person, and we are fine with referring to a person as "that", as in our English translations of 1 John 1:1.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    You are (unwittingly) discounting the notion that ἡ ζωὴ(feminine) in this verse is a "person" by insisting that it is the postcedent of a neuter pronoun (namely ὅ).

  10. #49
    tWebber lee_merrill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unitarian101 View Post
    It is not an example of ad sensum construction because the pronoun is ἐκεῖνος and it's antecedent is also masculine, namely παράκλητος.
    But I meant John 16:13:

    "ὅταν δὲ ἔλθῃ ἐκεῖνος, τὸ πνεῦμα τῆς ἀληθείας, ⸂ὁδηγήσει ὑμᾶς⸃ ⸄ἐν τῇ ἀληθείᾳ πάσῃ⸅· οὐ γὰρ λαλήσει ἀφʼ ἑαυτοῦ, ἀλλʼ ὅσα ⸆ ⸀ἀκούσει λαλήσει καὶ τὰ ἐρχόμενα ἀναγγελεῖ ὑμῖν." (John 16:13)

    You are (unwittingly) discounting the notion that ἡ ζωὴ(feminine) in this verse is a "person" by insisting that it is the postcedent of a neuter pronoun (namely ὅ).
    Yet the grammar is not the be-all and end-all of meaning. "The life appeared" shows that the life is personal, and is semantically what is referred to by "what" in the sentence.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

  11. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    But I meant John 16:13:
    I'm aware of that.

    "ὅταν δὲ ἔλθῃ ἐκεῖνος, τὸ πνεῦμα τῆς ἀληθείας, ⸂ὁδηγήσει ὑμᾶς⸃ ⸄ἐν τῇ ἀληθείᾳ πάσῃ⸅· οὐ γὰρ λαλήσει ἀφʼ ἑαυτοῦ, ἀλλʼ ὅσα ⸆ ⸀ἀκούσει λαλήσει καὶ τὰ ἐρχόμενα ἀναγγελεῖ ὑμῖν." (John 16:13)
    Point out the apparent ad sensum in this verse ?

    Yet the grammar is not the be-all and end-all of meaning.
    An ungrammatical reading is a non-starter, certainly.

    "The life appeared" shows that the life is personal, and is semantically what is referred to by "what" in the sentence.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    If you want it to mean above, you must give up on your assertion that ἡ ζωὴ is the postcedent of the neuter ὅ in 1 John 1:1.

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