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This is where we come to delve into the biblical text. Theology is not our foremost thought, but we realize it is something that will be dealt with in nearly every conversation. Feel free to use the original languages to make your point (meaning Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic). This is an exegetical discussion area, so please limit topics to purely biblical ones.

This is not the section for debates between theists and atheists. While a theistic viewpoint is not required for discussion in this area, discussion does presuppose a respect for the integrity of the Biblical text (or the willingness to accept such a presupposition for discussion purposes) and a respect for the integrity of the faith of others and a lack of an agenda to undermine the faith of others.

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  • #46
    Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
    Well, how about this verse, then?

    "ὅταν δὲ ἔλθῃ ἐκεῖνος, τὸ πνεῦμα τῆς ἀληθείας, ⸂ὁδηγήσει ὑμᾶς⸃ ⸄ἐν τῇ ἀληθείᾳ πάσῃ⸅· οὐ γὰρ λαλήσει ἀφʼ ἑαυτοῦ, ἀλλʼ ὅσα ⸆ ⸀ἀκούσει λαλήσει καὶ τὰ ἐρχόμενα ἀναγγελεῖ ὑμῖν." (John 16:13)

    The antecedent of ἐκεῖνος here is παράκλητος in John 16:7, and not τὸ πνεῦμα τῆς ἀληθείας. ἐκεῖνος is the subject of this sentence, τὸ πνεῦμα τῆς ἀληθείας is in apposition to ἐκεῖνος.

    But I meant in meaning, not grammatically, "the life" is "that which is from the beginning" etc.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    Then the apostle would have used ὃς ( constructo ad sensum) , to bring out the meaning that ἡ ζωὴ was a "person" (was a "who") who was from the beginning. In a nutshell, you're shooting yourself in the foot by arguing that ἡ ζωὴ is the antecedent of the neuter in 1 John 1:1. In other words, you are arguing (unwittingly ofcourse) that the author believed ἡ ζωὴ to be a thing rather than person in the beginning by taking ἡ ζωὴ as the antecedent. The difficulty Trinitarians have here is that whether the antecedent is taken to be ὁ λόγος or else ἡ ζωὴ, the same problem against it's personality persists, since the relative pronoun the author used here is neuter .

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by Unitarian101 View Post
      The antecedent of ἐκεῖνος here is παράκλητος in John 16:7, and not τὸ πνεῦμα τῆς ἀληθείας. ἐκεῖνος is the subject of this sentence, τὸ πνεῦμα τῆς ἀληθείας is in apposition to ἐκεῖνος.
      Well, it doesn't matter, this is still constructio ad sensum:

      "A grammatical construction in which a word’s inflexion is determined by the semantics of the word or words with which it associates, in contravention of what is required by grammar."


      Then the apostle would have used ὃς ( constructo ad sensum) , to bring out the meaning that ἡ ζωὴ was a "person" (was a "who") who was from the beginning.
      "The life appeared" is sufficient to show that this is a person, and we are fine with referring to a person as "that", as in our English translations of 1 John 1:1.

      Blessings,
      Lee
      "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
        Well, it doesn't matter, this is still constructio ad sensum:

        "A grammatical construction in which a word’s inflexion is determined by the semantics of the word or words with which it associates, in contravention of what is required by grammar."
        It is not an example of ad sensum construction because the pronoun is ἐκεῖνος and it's antecedent is also masculine, namely παράκλητος.



        "The life appeared" is sufficient to show that this is a person, and we are fine with referring to a person as "that", as in our English translations of 1 John 1:1.

        Blessings,
        Lee
        You are (unwittingly) discounting the notion that ἡ ζωὴ(feminine) in this verse is a "person" by insisting that it is the postcedent of a neuter pronoun (namely ὅ).

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by Unitarian101 View Post
          It is not an example of ad sensum construction because the pronoun is ἐκεῖνος and it's antecedent is also masculine, namely παράκλητος.
          But I meant John 16:13:

          "ὅταν δὲ ἔλθῃ ἐκεῖνος, τὸ πνεῦμα τῆς ἀληθείας, ⸂ὁδηγήσει ὑμᾶς⸃ ⸄ἐν τῇ ἀληθείᾳ πάσῃ⸅· οὐ γὰρ λαλήσει ἀφʼ ἑαυτοῦ, ἀλλʼ ὅσα ⸆ ⸀ἀκούσει λαλήσει καὶ τὰ ἐρχόμενα ἀναγγελεῖ ὑμῖν." (John 16:13)

          You are (unwittingly) discounting the notion that ἡ ζωὴ(feminine) in this verse is a "person" by insisting that it is the postcedent of a neuter pronoun (namely ὅ).
          Yet the grammar is not the be-all and end-all of meaning. "The life appeared" shows that the life is personal, and is semantically what is referred to by "what" in the sentence.

          Blessings,
          Lee
          "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
            But I meant John 16:13:
            I'm aware of that.

            "ὅταν δὲ ἔλθῃ ἐκεῖνος, τὸ πνεῦμα τῆς ἀληθείας, ⸂ὁδηγήσει ὑμᾶς⸃ ⸄ἐν τῇ ἀληθείᾳ πάσῃ⸅· οὐ γὰρ λαλήσει ἀφʼ ἑαυτοῦ, ἀλλʼ ὅσα ⸆ ⸀ἀκούσει λαλήσει καὶ τὰ ἐρχόμενα ἀναγγελεῖ ὑμῖν." (John 16:13)
            Point out the apparent ad sensum in this verse ?

            Yet the grammar is not the be-all and end-all of meaning.
            An ungrammatical reading is a non-starter, certainly.

            "The life appeared" shows that the life is personal, and is semantically what is referred to by "what" in the sentence.

            Blessings,
            Lee
            If you want it to mean above, you must give up on your assertion that ἡ ζωὴ is the postcedent of the neuter ὅ in 1 John 1:1.

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by Unitarian101 View Post
              Point out the apparent ad sensum in this verse ?
              The use of ἐκεῖνος here.

              An ungrammatical reading is a non-starter, certainly.
              We are just now discussing that grammar is not always followed, in constructio ad sensum.

              If you want it to mean above, you must give up on your assertion that ἡ ζωὴ is the postcedent of the neuter ὅ in 1 John 1:1.
              Grammatically, it is not the postcedent, but logically, it is.

              Blessings,
              Lee
              "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

              Comment


              • #52
                Bumping again...
                "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                Comment


                • #53
                  Trying to see my last post here...
                  "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                    The use of ἐκεῖνος here.
                    What is the antecedent of ἐκεῖνος here ?

                    We are just now discussing that grammar is not always followed, in constructio ad sensum.
                    With ad sensum grammatical gender is not followed, not that "grammar" itself is not followed or is discarded. In other words, a sentence with an ad sensum construction is perfectly grammatical.

                    Grammatically, it is not the postcedent, but logically, it is.

                    Blessings,
                    Lee
                    How can τῆς ζωῆς "logically" be the antecedent of ὃ ? This is a rather nonsensical assertion. It can only be the postcedent of ὃ by ad sensum.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Unitarian101 View Post
                      What is the antecedent of ἐκεῖνος here ?
                      I don't think it has an antecedent, but it is the antecedent of τὸ πνεῦμα τῆς ἀληθείας.

                      With ad sensum grammatical gender is not followed, not that "grammar" itself is not followed or is discarded. In other words, a sentence with an ad sensum construction is perfectly grammatical.
                      Not so, according to the dictionary:

                      Source: Your Dictionary

                      A grammatical construction in which a word’s inflexion is determined by the semantics of the word or words with which it associates, in contravention of what is required by grammar.

                      Source

                      © Copyright Original Source



                      How can τῆς ζωῆς "logically" be the antecedent of ὃ ? This is a rather nonsensical assertion. It can only be the postcedent of ὃ by ad sensum.
                      Well, τῆς ζωῆς is in a different clause! Or even a different sentence. It's rather grammatically disconnected from ὃ, thus the statement that it's logically a postcedent.

                      Blessings,
                      Lee
                      "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                        I don't think it has an antecedent,
                        All Greek pronouns have antecedents/ postcedents (whether implied or explicit) .

                        but it is the antecedent of τὸ πνεῦμα τῆς ἀληθείας.
                        What is the antecedent "to τὸ πνεῦμα τῆς ἀληθείας ?"


                        Not so, according to the dictionary:

                        Source: Your Dictionary

                        A grammatical construction in which a word’s inflexion is determined by the semantics of the word or words with which it associates, in contravention of what is required by grammar.

                        Source

                        © Copyright Original Source

                        This dictionary definition is imprecise . It is also not discussing constructio ad sensum as pertains to Koine. Here is the definition of "constructio ad sesnum" according to a Greek grammar:


                        Pronouns, whether personal, demonstrative, or relative, not unfrequently take a different gender from the nouns to which they refer. This is called constructio ad sensum, the meaning, and not the grammatical gender of the word, being mainly considered.
                        Infact, constructio ad sensum is "good" Greek, and not ungrammatical Greek. Wallace cites Turner as calling the incongruence of gender or number that is due to constructio ad sensum"good Greek" (Nigel Turner,Syntax, vol. 3 of J. H. Moulton et al.,A Grammar of New Testament Greek [Edinburgh: T. & T. Clark, 1963], 311).




                        Well, τῆς ζωῆς is in a different clause! Or even a different sentence. It's rather grammatically disconnected from ὃ, thus the statement that it's logically a postcedent.

                        Blessings,
                        Lee
                        This doesn't make much sense at all. It is my humble opinion that you do not know Greek grammar but are fudging around on the go.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          FWIW, even in English an ad sensum type construction is never an "ungrammatical" sentence. So for instance we could say the following:

                          (A) "The S.S. Enterprise (a ship) made her maiden voyage today. She sails beautifully."

                          This type of English sentence approximates what in Koine Greek would be called a sentence which follows "grammatical gender" concord.

                          (B) "The S.S. Enterprise made it's maiden voyage today. It sails beautifully ."

                          This English sentence approximates what in Koine would be called an ad sensum construction.

                          Both sentences are perfectly grammatical.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Unitarian101 View Post
                            What is the antecedent "to τὸ πνεῦμα τῆς ἀληθείας ?"
                            I should have said "τὸ πνεῦμα τῆς ἀληθείας" is the postcedent to ἐκεῖνος.

                            This dictionary definition is imprecise . It is also not discussing constructio ad sensum as pertains to Koine. Here is the definition of "constructio ad sesnum" according to a Greek grammar: "This is called constructio ad sensum, the meaning, and not the grammatical gender of the word, being mainly considered."
                            But your own quote shows it's ungrammatical, and just because it's "good Greek" doesn't make it grammatical.

                            Source: Pocket Dictionary for the Study of NT Greek

                            “construction according to sense.”—n. A construction that is technically ungrammatical but is understood nevertheless.

                            Matthew S. DeMoss, Pocket Dictionary for the Study of New Testament Greek (Downers Grove, IL: InterVarsity Press, 2001), 36.

                            © Copyright Original Source



                            This doesn't make much sense at all. It is my humble opinion that you do not know Greek grammar but are fudging around on the go.
                            I only mean that the phrase is syntactically distant from ὃ, you could argue that "the word of life" is the postcedent. But I think the main focus is on τῆς ζωῆς.

                            Blessings,
                            Lee
                            "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                              I should have said "τὸ πνεῦμα τῆς ἀληθείας" is the postcedent to ἐκεῖνος.

                              Better. However τὸ πνεῦμα τῆς ἀληθείας is in apposition to ἐκεῖνος, it is not it's postcedent.



                              But your own quote shows it's ungrammatical, and just because it's "good Greek" doesn't make it grammatical.
                              The following is your quote, not mine. Matthew S. DeMoss does not seem to have any Greek credentials. His "pocket dictionary" is not a grammar book. The following (especially in red) is misinformation or else a very poorly worded sentence.

                              Source: Pocket Dictionary for the Study of NT Greek

                              “construction according to sense.”—n. A construction that is technically ungrammatical but is understood nevertheless.

                              Matthew S. DeMoss, Pocket Dictionary for the Study of New Testament Greek (Downers Grove, IL: InterVarsity Press, 2001), 36.

                              © Copyright Original Source




                              I only mean that the phrase is syntactically distant from ὃ, you could argue that "the word of life" is the postcedent. But I think the main focus is on τῆς ζωῆς.

                              Blessings,
                              Lee
                              Great! So "the Word of life" is the postcedent of ὃ, according to you. You just denied (unwittingly ofcourse), again, that ὃ here is a person / is personal.
                              Last edited by Unitarian101; 08-11-2020, 07:03 PM.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Unitarian101 View Post
                                Better. However τὸ πνεῦμα τῆς ἀληθείας is in apposition to ἐκεῖνος, it is not it's postcedent.
                                All right, but it is a use of constructio ad sensum.

                                The following (especially in red) is misinformation or else a very poorly worded sentence.

                                Source: Pocket Dictionary for the Study of NT Greek

                                “construction according to sense.”—n. A construction that is technically ungrammatical but is understood nevertheless.

                                Matthew S. DeMoss, Pocket Dictionary for the Study of New Testament Greek (Downers Grove, IL: InterVarsity Press, 2001), 36.

                                © Copyright Original Source

                                Well, how about here?

                                Source: Ephesians: A Handbook on the Greek Text, by William Larkin

                                A construction that follows the sense of the expression rather than strict grammatical rules.

                                © Copyright Original Source



                                Great! So "the Word of life" is the postcedent of ὃ, according to you. You just denied (unwittingly ofcourse), again, that ὃ here is a person / is personal.
                                Not at all! "The Life appeared" makes it clear that John means the person, of Jesus.

                                Blessings,
                                Lee
                                "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                                Comment

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