Announcement

Collapse

Biblical Languages 301 Guidelines

This is where we come to delve into the biblical text. Theology is not our foremost thought, but we realize it is something that will be dealt with in nearly every conversation. Feel free to use the original languages to make your point (meaning Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic). This is an exegetical discussion area, so please limit topics to purely biblical ones.

This is not the section for debates between theists and atheists. While a theistic viewpoint is not required for discussion in this area, discussion does presuppose a respect for the integrity of the Biblical text (or the willingness to accept such a presupposition for discussion purposes) and a respect for the integrity of the faith of others and a lack of an agenda to undermine the faith of others.

Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less

ὁ Λόγος

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #31
    Originally posted by Unitarian101 View Post
    (1) Are you aware that Trinitarian Orthodoxy denies that to be "human" is to be "a human person" in the case of Jesus ? Read up on the essential Trinitarian doctrine of anhypostasis.

    (2) If Jesus is "a human person," then you either have to conclude that he is two people ("a human person" and "a Divine person"), the error of Nestorius, or else deny that he is a Divine person .
    Well, one person with two natures, is the doctrine.

    For the sake of this discussion, I'm willing to go along with the notion that it can mean "with."
    Sounds good!

    This is not an example of a grammatical construction like John 1:1b (substantive A + be verb + πρός + substantive B) where each of the two substantives (A and B) respectively denotes a "person."
    But "the life" clearly refers to the living Christ, he "appeared to us."

    Blessings,
    Lee
    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
      Well, one person with two natures, is the doctrine.


      Sounds good!
      That's not exactly correct. The doctrine is "A Divine person with two natures." In other words he's not an undefined or generic person with two natures, nor is he a hybrid(Divine-human) person with two natures, nor is he a human person and a Divine person simultaneously with two natures, but he is only a Divine (i.e. non-human) person with a Divine nature and a human nature. In other words the Divine person did not assume a human person at the "Incarnation," but only a human nature.


      But "the life" clearly refers to the living Christ, he "appeared to us."

      Blessings, Lee
      Yes, a human person, a human being. It's not referring to a pre-existent non-human Divine person. But this is digression. My question, which again you did not answer, asks you to furnish an example of a grammatical construction like John 1:1b (substantive A + be verb + πρός + substantive B) where each of the two substantives (A and B) respectively denotes a "person." So I am forced to conclude that you cannot.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Unitarian101 View Post
        In other words the Divine person did not assume a human person at the "Incarnation," but only a human nature.
        I agree with this.

        Yes, a human person, a human being. It's not referring to a pre-existent non-human Divine person.
        "which was with the Father and has appeared" would indicate pre-existence, and "the life" would indicate divinity (per John 14:6). And "has appeared to us" clearly indicates that "the life" refers to Jesus, a person.

        Blessings,
        Lee
        "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
          I agree with this.
          You can only agree with that if you retract your earlier statement that Jesus is a human person. Ref. -- But "became human" means "became a human person".

          "which was with the Father and has appeared" would indicate pre-existence, and "the life" would indicate divinity (per John 14:6). And "has appeared to us" clearly indicates that "the life" refers to Jesus, a person.

          Blessings,
          Lee
          "Which" (not "who") is the right pronoun indeed, not a "who." It is only after it had manifested (i.e. become a human person) can "it" be said to be a "he" or a "who." In the bible "eternal life" (τὴν ζωὴν τὴν αἰώνιον) is a thing, not a person. For example, John 5:21--
          ὥσπερ γὰρ ὁ Πατὴρ ἐγείρει τοὺς νεκροὺς καὶ ζωοποιεῖ, οὕτως καὶ ὁ Υἱὸς οὓς θέλει ζωοποιεῖ.
          Here is a reading of the first Chapter of 1 John for more context.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Unitarian101 View Post
            "Which" (not "who") is the right pronoun indeed, not a "who." It is only after it had manifested (i.e. become a human person) can "it" be said to be a "he" or a "who." In the bible "eternal life" (τὴν ζωὴν τὴν αἰώνιον) is a thing, not a person. For example, John 5:21--
            No, Jesus is a person before and after the incarnation, "which" is just to agree with "life" grammatically, but clearly "eternal life" refers to Jesus before he appeared, and after he appeared, for John here.

            Blessings,
            Lee
            "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
              No, Jesus is a person before and after the incarnation, "which" is just to agree with "life" grammatically, but clearly "eternal life" refers to Jesus before he appeared, and after he appeared, for John here.

              Blessings,
              Lee
              In the bible, when the person Jesus is meant with a feminine noun, constructio ad sensum is invoked, so that the bible then refers to him not with a corresponding grammatically feminine pronoun but with a masculine pronoun. . Take a look at the following example :

              καὶ οὐ κρατῶν τὴν Κεφαλήν, ἐξ οὗ πᾶν τὸ σῶμα διὰ τῶν ἁφῶν καὶ συνδέσμων ἐπιχορηγούμενον καὶ συνβιβαζόμενον αὔξει τὴν αὔξησιν τοῦ Θεοῦ.
              Col. 2:19

              Similarly, had the bible considered τὴν ζωὴν τὴν αἰώνιον at 1 John 1:2 to be personal, it would have not used the feminine ἥτις to merely match for grammatical gender but the masculine ὃς to declare his personality.

              So both contextually and grammatically, your reading is not possible.

              But it get's worse. If you look at verse 1 you observe the following:

              ἦν ἀπ’ ἀρχῆς, ἀκηκόαμεν, ἑωράκαμεν τοῖς ὀφθαλμοῖς ἡμῶν, ἐθεασάμεθα καὶ αἱ χεῖρες ἡμῶν ἐψηλάφησαν, περὶ τοῦ Λόγου τῆς ζωῆς,—
              Here the apostle purposely uses constructio ad sensum to discount the notion of a pre-existent personal λόγος. The antecedent of the masculine λόγος is a neuter relative pronoun (!), namely ὃ . Four times he does that in a single verse, as though he was desperate to rebuke the emerging Gnostic/ proto-Trinitarian doctrine of pre-flesh "Jesus" as an eternally existing non-human person.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Unitarian101 View Post
                In the bible, when the person Jesus is meant with a feminine noun, constructio ad sensum is invoked, so that the bible then refers to him not with a corresponding grammatically feminine pronoun but with a masculine pronoun.
                Not always!

                "αὐτὸ τὸ πνεῦμα συμμαρτυρεῖ τῷ πνεύματι ἡμῶν ὅτι ἐσμὲν τέκνα θεοῦ..." (Ro 8:16)

                "The Spirit himself", we read, but "himself" is neuter singular.

                Here the apostle purposely uses constructio ad sensum to discount the notion of a pre-existent personal λόγος. The antecedent of the masculine λόγος is a neuter relative pronoun (!), namely ὃ . Four times he does that in a single verse, as though he was desperate to rebuke the emerging Gnostic/ proto-Trinitarian doctrine of pre-flesh "Jesus" as an eternally existing non-human person.
                No, "ὃ" here just means "that which", as in our English translations, and nobody thinks this objectifies Jesus. "Which we have seen, which we have touched" does indicate a person, and "with the Father and appeared to us" indicates pre-existence.

                Blessings
                Lee
                "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                  Not always!

                  "αὐτὸ τὸ πνεῦμα συμμαρτυρεῖ τῷ πνεύματι ἡμῶν ὅτι ἐσμὲν τέκνα θεοῦ..." (Ro 8:16)

                  "The Spirit himself", we read, but "himself" is neuter singular.
                  Not sure what you're doing with this. Here the grammatical gender of the substantive is neuter, and the pronoun which refers to it is also neuter. We expect this since the spirit is a thing rather than a person. The correct translation is "the Spirit itself..."



                  No, "ὃ" here just means "that which", as in our English translations, and nobody thinks this objectifies Jesus. "Which we have seen, which we have touched" does indicate a person, and "with the Father and appeared to us" indicates pre-existence.

                  Blessings
                  Lee
                  What is the antecedent / post-cedent of ὃ in 1 John 1:1 ?

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Unitarian101 View Post
                    Not sure what you're doing with this. Here the grammatical gender of the substantive is neuter, and the pronoun which refers to it is also neuter. We expect this since the spirit is a thing rather than a person. The correct translation is "the Spirit itself..."
                    No, "the Spirit himself" is in the modern translations, and note the following constructio ad sensum:

                    Ταῦτα λελάληκα ὑμῖν παρʼ ὑμῖν μένων· ὁ δὲ παράκλητος, τὸ πνεῦμα τὸ ἅγιον, ὃ πέμψει ⸆ ὁ πατὴρ ἐν τῷ ὀνόματί μου, ἐκεῖνος ὑμᾶς διδάξει πάντα καὶ ὑπομνήσει ὑμᾶς πάντα ἃ εἶπον ὑμῖν." (Jn 14:25–26)

                    What is the antecedent / post-cedent of ὃ in 1 John 1:1 ?
                    "ἡ ζωὴ", I would say.

                    Source: Expositor's Bible Commentary

                    But in God the message of life also draws near to humanity and finds its culmination in Jesus. In him the Word of life becomes incarnated, manifested, and hence can be seen, touched, and even handled.

                    © Copyright Original Source



                    Blessings,
                    Lee
                    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                      (1) No, "the Spirit himself" is in the modern translations, and note the following constructio ad sensum:

                      Ταῦτα λελάληκα ὑμῖν παρʼ ὑμῖν μένων· ὁ δὲ παράκλητος, τὸ πνεῦμα τὸ ἅγιον, ὃ πέμψει ⸆ ὁ πατὴρ ἐν τῷ ὀνόματί μου, ἐκεῖνος ὑμᾶς διδάξει πάντα καὶ ὑπομνήσει ὑμᾶς πάντα ἃ εἶπον ὑμῖν." (Jn 14:25–26)


                      (2)"ἡ ζωὴ", I would say.

                      Source: Expositor's Bible Commentary

                      But in God the message of life also draws near to humanity and finds its culmination in Jesus. In him the Word of life becomes incarnated, manifested, and hence can be seen, touched, and even handled.

                      © Copyright Original Source



                      Blessings,
                      Lee
                      (1) There is no constructio ad sensum in John 14:25. The antecedent of ἐκεῖνος is παράκλητος. τὸ πνεῦμα is rather in apposition to παράκλητος.

                      (2) It is grammatically impossible for ἡ ζωὴ to be the antecedent of ὃ ( neuter). The pronoun, if ἡ ζωὴ is the antecedent, must either be feminine ( ἥ , to match with grammatical gender ) or else masculine ( ὅ , to match for actual gender ).

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Unitarian101 View Post
                        (1) There is no constructio ad sensum in John 14:25. The antecedent of ἐκεῖνος is παράκλητος. τὸ πνεῦμα is rather in apposition to παράκλητος.
                        Well, how about this verse, then?

                        "13 ὅταν δὲ ἔλθῃ ἐκεῖνος, τὸ πνεῦμα τῆς ἀληθείας, ⸂ὁδηγήσει ὑμᾶς⸃ ⸄ἐν τῇ ἀληθείᾳ πάσῃ⸅· οὐ γὰρ λαλήσει ἀφʼ ἑαυτοῦ, ἀλλʼ ὅσα ⸆ ⸀ἀκούσει λαλήσει καὶ τὰ ἐρχόμενα ἀναγγελεῖ ὑμῖν." (John 16:13)

                        (2) It is grammatically impossible for ἡ ζωὴ to be the antecedent of ὃ ( neuter). The pronoun, if ἡ ζωὴ is the antecedent, must either be feminine ( ἥ , to match with grammatical gender ) or else masculine ( ὅ , to match for actual gender ).
                        But I meant in meaning, not grammatically, "the life" is "that which is from the beginning" etc.

                        Blessings,
                        Lee
                        "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Unitarian101 View Post
                          (1) There is no constructio ad sensum in John 14:25. The antecedent of ἐκεῖνος is παράκλητος. τὸ πνεῦμα is rather in apposition to παράκλητος.
                          Well, how about this verse, then?

                          "ὅταν δὲ ἔλθῃ ἐκεῖνος, τὸ πνεῦμα τῆς ἀληθείας, ⸂ὁδηγήσει ὑμᾶς⸃ ⸄ἐν τῇ ἀληθείᾳ πάσῃ⸅· οὐ γὰρ λαλήσει ἀφʼ ἑαυτοῦ, ἀλλʼ ὅσα ⸆ ⸀ἀκούσει λαλήσει καὶ τὰ ἐρχόμενα ἀναγγελεῖ ὑμῖν." (John 16:13)

                          (2) It is grammatically impossible for ἡ ζωὴ to be the antecedent of ὃ ( neuter). The pronoun, if ἡ ζωὴ is the antecedent, must either be feminine ( ἥ , to match with grammatical gender ) or else masculine ( ὅ , to match for actual gender ).
                          But I meant in meaning, not grammatically, "the life" is "that which is from the beginning" etc.

                          Blessings,
                          Lee
                          "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Unitarian101 View Post
                            (1) There is no constructio ad sensum in John 14:25. The antecedent of ἐκεῖνος is παράκλητος. τὸ πνεῦμα is rather in apposition to παράκλητος.

                            (2) It is grammatically impossible for ἡ ζωὴ to be the antecedent of ὃ ( neuter). The pronoun, if ἡ ζωὴ is the antecedent, must either be feminine ( ἥ , to match with grammatical gender ) or else masculine ( ὅ , to match for actual gender ).
                            I am thoroughly enjoying this!
                            "It ain't necessarily so
                            The things that you're liable
                            To read in the Bible
                            It ain't necessarily so
                            ."

                            Sportin' Life
                            Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Trying to get my post to appear...
                              "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                                I am thoroughly enjoying this!
                                You're welcome...

                                Comment

                                widgetinstance 221 (Related Threads) skipped due to lack of content & hide_module_if_empty option.
                                Working...
                                X