Legal issues wrt portland (and other proposed) DHS incursions into Democratic Cities

[oxmixmudd]

I posted this in the 'secret police' thread but I do believe the legal article, and the legal issues, with this novel use of the DHS as a national police force deserve their own thread as they will quickly be buried in the other thread by other 'discussions' happening there.

In a recent article from the CATO institute, serious issues associated with the use of DHS as a national police force are discussed. The author is



The author asks these questions:

1) Were federal agents operating incognito?
2) Whose van is that?
3) What are people being arrested for?
4) How far from federal property are federal agents operating?
5) What are the individuals being told about the reasons for their detainment?
6) Who invited the feds into Portland in the first place?

https://www.cato.org/publications/co...t-portland-dhs

Here is some of the text, but there is way more in the article than anyone will read in a post:

Source: above

Were federal agents operating incognito? Photos show agents clad in camouflage, with at least some of them wearing a generic not wearingWhat are people being arrested for?without charges or paperwork of any kind documenting his detention.further investigation is badly needed to pin down exactly what probable cause the DHS officers had, what sort of record‐keeping is being done concerning these detentions, and whether this kind of thing has happened other times.

...


What are the individuals being told about the reasons for their detainment?

© Copyright Original Source

Critically - The author offers the following response to what to do about the problems highlighted in his answers to the above:

Source: above

An average citizen seeing a bundle of poorly‐identified men with firearms jumping out of an unmarked van would not be crazy to wonder if they were agents of law enforcement or the kind of cos‐play militia‐performers we have seen so much of recently.to follow probable‐cause standards for arrest and announce and document the grounds for and circumstances of the arrest, label vans used to transport arrestees, and so on down the line with all of the other protections we expect of local law enforcement.

© Copyright Original Source

There is a good deal more in the article itself, I recommend people read it.

[Cow Poke]

And all of this could have been avoided if the Democrat mayor and governor hadn't allowed this to boil over, having abdicated their own authority.

[Cow Poke]

....

The author asks these questions:

I'll play!!!

1) Were federal agents operating incognito?

They obviously are NOT, as they are wearing their agency shoulder patch, and the whole world knows who they are.
If the question is "why do we not personally identify each officer by name", it's a ludicrous question.

2) Whose van is that?

What a DUMB question.
What does it matter? The fact that marked police vehicles are being vandalized, attacked, set on fire --- would YOU want to drive a marked police vehicle into that area?

3) What are people being arrested for?

Apparently, the police are attempting to disrupt command and control, and remove the instigators.
They appear to be detained for questioning, and in the case of the one allegedly "kidnapped", was searched, questioned and released

4) How far from federal property are federal agents operating?

Again, what does it matter?
How far are people coming from to attack the federal building?
How far do they run away after attempting to burn down the federal building?
Is there some 'legal distance' the officers need to stay within?
"Federal Agents" have jurisdiction in all 50 states, and all of each state's counties or parishes.

5) What are the individuals being told about the reasons for their detainment?

This is beginning to look like "What other questions can I ask to try to make this scary.

6) Who invited the feds into Portland in the first place?

When you get pulled over for speeding, who invited the officer to your driver window?
If the mayor and governor had been doing their job, federal officers would not need to be involved at all

There needs to be a 7th question just to make it more biblical.

7) Why were the mayor and governor so derelict in their duties that they could not manage this problem themselves?

Now, to be perfectly clear, I don't like this AT ALL, and there are some good questions and observations in the article.

HOWEVER ---- why are they not asking question #7 above?

[oxmixmudd]

I'll play!!!

1) Were federal agents operating incognito?

They obviously are NOT, as they are wearing their agency shoulder patch, and the whole world knows who they are.
If the question is "why do we not personally identify each officer by name", it's a ludicrous question.

2) Whose van is that?

What a DUMB question.
What does it matter? The fact that marked police vehicles are being vandalized, attacked, set on fire --- would YOU want to drive a marked police vehicle into that area?

3) What are people being arrested for?

Apparently, the police are attempting to disrupt command and control, and remove the instigators.
They appear to be detained for questioning, and in the case of the one allegedly "kidnapped", was searched, questioned and released

4) How far from federal property are federal agents operating?

Again, what does it matter?
How far are people coming from to attack the federal building?
How far do they run away after attempting to burn down the federal building?
Is there some 'legal distance' the officers need to stay within?
"Federal Agents" have jurisdiction in all 50 states, and all of each state's counties or parishes.

5) What are the individuals being told about the reasons for their detainment?

This is beginning to look like "What other questions can I ask to try to make this scary.

6) Who invited the feds into Portland in the first place?

When you get pulled over for speeding, who invited the officer to your driver window?
If the mayor and governor had been doing their job, federal officers would not need to be involved at all

There needs to be a 7th question just to make it more biblical.

7) Why were the mayor and governor so derelict in their duties that they could not manage this problem themselves?

Now, to be perfectly clear, I don't like this AT ALL, and there are some good questions and observations in the article.

HOWEVER ---- why are they not asking question #7 above?

The point is to address the points made by the author, not to continue to pretend this is all the Democrats fault.

[Cow Poke]

The point is to address the points made by the author, not to continue to pretend this is all the Democrats fault.

PRETEND?

And, did you fail to notice I EASILY answered the dumb questions?

[Maranatha]

I posted this in the 'secret police' thread but I do believe the legal article, and the legal issues, with this novel use of the DHS as a national police force deserve their own thread as they will quickly be buried in the other thread by other 'discussions' happening there.

In a recent article from the CATO institute, serious issues associated with the use of DHS as a national police force are discussed. The author is



The author asks these questions:

1) Were federal agents operating incognito?
2) Whose van is that?
3) What are people being arrested for?
4) How far from federal property are federal agents operating?
5) What are the individuals being told about the reasons for their detainment?
6) Who invited the feds into Portland in the first place?

https://www.cato.org/publications/co...t-portland-dhs

Here is some of the text, but there is way more in the article than anyone will read in a post:

Source: above

Were federal agents operating incognito? Photos show agents clad in camouflage, with at least some of them wearing a generic not wearingWhat are people being arrested for?without charges or paperwork of any kind documenting his detention.further investigation is badly needed to pin down exactly what probable cause the DHS officers had, what sort of record‐keeping is being done concerning these detentions, and whether this kind of thing has happened other times.

...


What are the individuals being told about the reasons for their detainment?

© Copyright Original Source

Critically - The author offers the following response to what to do about the problems highlighted in his answers to the above:

Source: above

An average citizen seeing a bundle of poorly‐identified men with firearms jumping out of an unmarked van would not be crazy to wonder if they were agents of law enforcement or the kind of cos‐play militia‐performers we have seen so much of recently.to follow probable‐cause standards for arrest and announce and document the grounds for and circumstances of the arrest, label vans used to transport arrestees, and so on down the line with all of the other protections we expect of local law enforcement.

© Copyright Original Source

There is a good deal more in the article itself, I recommend people read it.

The man sounds like he wants to police the police from watching CNN.

I have no sympathy for violent people.

How about this, Cato man

"Americans won't, and shouldn't, put up with anonymous, arbitrary, and extremely violent left wing marxists."

[Whateverman]

It's fun watching-wing fascist and self-described defenders of the US constitution - blame the unconstitutional wielding of federal law enforcement on Democrats.

One such individual reacted with hostility when I rejected his answer to the question of what conservatives value. He wrote the simple and complete answer is the constitution; when I said conservatives value more than that, he ended what had been a polite exchange up to that point.

Each and every conservative in this thread who ignores the unconstitutional nature of the DHS being used to break up and intimidate protests in Portland literally proves that I was right.

[oxmixmudd]

PRETEND?

And, did you fail to notice I EASILY answered the dumb questions?

I noticed your 'answers' displayed both a complete ignorance of what the abuse of power is and confirm you are not willing to discuss any of this with reason or without acrimony.

This man is no light weight CP. The elements he addresses and the concerns he raises are real. The fact you are mocking him rather than dealing seriously with the points he makes just puts on display how lacking in judgement, wisdom, and objectivity you are.

[oxmixmudd]

The man sounds like he wants to police the police from watching CNN.

I have no sympathy for violent people.

How about this, Cato man

"Americans won't, and shouldn't, put up with anonymous, arbitrary, and extremely violent left wing marxists."

I doubt you'd find disagreement from him or me on your final point. But the fact you call him 'cato man' just, as with CP, shows how ignorant you are (and how futile it is to try to use reason to change your position).

[Cow Poke]

I noticed you continued to display complete ignorance of what the abuse of power is.

No, Jim --- I simply CLEARLY CONDEMN it -- I don't have to dwell on individual examples - I'm against ALL abuse of power.

This man is no light weight CP. The elements he addresses and the concerns he raises are real.

I should bow in reverence?

The fact you are mocking him rather than dealing seriously with the points

I'm getting really tired of this -- I dealt with his "points" -- I'm just not consumed with hate like you are.

he makes just puts on display how lacking in judgement, wisdom, and objectivity you are.

Ya know what, Jim? You're making JimL look downright reasonable.

[Cow Poke]

It's fun watching-wing fascist and self-described defenders of the US constitution - blame the unconstitutional wielding of federal law enforcement on Democrats.

Wow, that's quite a bit of idiocy you packed into one sentence!

One such individual reacted with hostility when I rejected his answer to the question of what conservatives value. He wrote the simple and complete answer is the constitution; when I said conservatives value more than that, he ended what had been a polite exchange up to that point.

Each and every conservative in this thread who ignores the unconstitutional nature of the DHS being used to break up and intimidate protests in Portland literally proves that I was right.

Oh, did I mention I don't like HOW this was done?

And, we wouldn't even BE here if the hate-filled leftist morons hadn't seized six city blocks and a police station, burned and looted, and tried multiple times to burn down a federal courthouse.
But, hey... these are just "jerk kids" "tossing rocks through a window", so, let's all just sit back and let them have their fun.

ORANGEMANBAD causes loony liberals to hate law and order.

[oxmixmudd]

Here is another article I believe makes very good points wrt what is happening in portland, points I've already made in other thread, but from the pen of Paul Matzko:

https://paulmatzko.com/

https://www.cato.org/blog/portland-p...-border-patrol

Source: above

he is able to wield this power by executive will alone and without having to go through the checks and balances constitutionally provided by Senate confirmation,It raises the prospect of a future executive being able to cycle through acting officials in order to avoid legislative scrutiny until he or she finds one willing to grossly violate the Constitution.

© Copyright Original Source

I would suggest the 'future' as it were is now in that Trump has, in his fifth appointment, apparently found someone willing to do just that wrt deploying DHS as a para-military national 'police' force.

[Cow Poke]

Here is another article I believe makes very good points wrt what is happening in portland, points I've already made in other thread, but from the pen of Paul Matzko:

https://paulmatzko.com/

https://www.cato.org/blog/portland-p...-border-patrol

Source: above

he is able to wield this power by executive will alone and without having to go through the checks and balances constitutionally provided by Senate confirmation,It raises the prospect of a future executive being able to cycle through acting officials in order to avoid legislative scrutiny until he or she finds one willing to grossly violate the Constitution.

© Copyright Original Source

Jim, that's called an opinion.
I could scour the internet and find OPPOSING opinions.
In fact, I wouldn't have to scour at all --- they're out there by the boatload.


There is nothing new there.

I would suggest the 'future' as it were is now in that Trump has, in his fifth appointment, apparently found someone willing to do just that wrt deploying DHS as a para-military national 'police' force.

So, rather than "para-military" (inaccurate though it may be) you had suggested sending in the ACTUAL military.

[Sparko]

I agree with Ox. We need to pull out all of the federal police and let Portland self-destruct. They clearly don't want to stop the riots. They should get what they want. This will assure Trump wins in November because the Left Coast will be too busy burning down their own homes to vote.

[seanD]

I agree with Ox. We need to pull out all of the federal police and let Portland self-destruct. They clearly don't want to stop the riots. They should get what they want. This will assure Trump wins in November because the Left Coast will be too busy burning down their own homes to vote.

But... but... don't you care about federal property and all the federal employees inside!