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How do you attempt to rationalise with the completely irrational?

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  • Originally posted by seer View Post
    We were arguing whether the laws of logic were absolute or not. So which conventional rules do we follow then?
    The ones that Aristotle came up with seem to be good enough for most purposes.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by JimL View Post
      Already went through that with you, it's in your best interest to survive, it's in your best interests not to suffer unecessarily. Or do you disagree with that?
      And why is my best interest a good? See Jim it all comes back to our "say so." My survival or best interest is a good because I say so. A circular justification.
      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Stoic View Post
        The ones that Aristotle came up with seem to be good enough for most purposes.
        Yes including the law of non-contradiction. Which he denies is valid in all cases. So I asked him:

        1. The laws of logic are absolute.

        2. The laws of logic are not absolute.

        So both propositions could be true?
        Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

        Comment


        • Originally posted by seer View Post
          And why is my best interest a good? See Jim it all comes back to our "say so." My survival or best interest is a good because I say so. A circular justification.
          That's because morality has to do with our best interests, seer. So, your, our, survival, our not suffering unnecessarily, is either "good" (in our best interests, or "evil" (not in our best interests. Which is it?

          Comment


          • Originally posted by JimL View Post
            That's because morality has to do with our best interests, seer. So, your, our, survival, our not suffering unnecessarily, is either "good" (in our best interests, or "evil" (not in our best interests. Which is it?
            Not the point Jim, it is only good because we SAY SO. It is a circular justification. Period.
            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

            Comment


            • Originally posted by seer View Post
              Yes including the law of non-contradiction. Which he denies is valid in all cases. So I asked him:

              1. The laws of logic are absolute.

              2. The laws of logic are not absolute.

              So both propositions could be true?
              He might be thinking about paraconsistent logic.

              Here is a source that gives a good idea of the consequences of denying the principle of non-contradiction or the principle of the excluded middle. (HINT: It's not necessarily terrible.)

              Comment


              • Originally posted by seer View Post
                Not the point Jim, it is only good because we SAY SO. It is a circular justification. Period.
                Well I'd agree to a certain extent in that we do subjectively desire to live, but by nature as well, the first purpose for being born, the first purpose of life, is to live, to survive. So, you could argue that survival is both a subjective as well as an objective "good". I don't think though that whether it be subjective or objective makes a whole lot of difference with respect to what is "good" since the subjective desire to survive, the desire to be free of unnecessary suffering, is a desire common to all life. It's not a circular argument at any rate, because "good" in the above sense is relative to survival, to unnecessary suffering, not to our subjective desire to survive, or to not suffer unnecessarily.
                Your argument on the other hand is that what is "good or evil" has nothing whatsoever to do with the lives of human beings, and that just makes no sense to me.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Stoic View Post
                  He might be thinking about paraconsistent logic.

                  Here is a source that gives a good idea of the consequences of denying the principle of non-contradiction or the principle of the excluded middle. (HINT: It's not necessarily terrible.)
                  So let me ask you, could both propositions be true?:

                  1. The laws of logic are absolute.

                  2. The laws of logic are not absolute.

                  Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                    Well I'd agree to a certain extent in that we do subjectively desire to live, but by nature as well, the first purpose for being born, the first purpose of life, is to live, to survive. So, you could argue that survival is both a subjective as well as an objective "good". I don't think though that whether it be subjective or objective makes a whole lot of difference with respect to what is "good" since the subjective desire to survive, the desire to be free of unnecessary suffering, is a desire common to all life. It's not a circular argument at any rate, because "good" in the above sense is relative to survival, to unnecessary suffering, not to our subjective desire to survive, or to not suffer unnecessarily.
                    Your argument on the other hand is that what is "good or evil" has nothing whatsoever to do with the lives of human beings, and that just makes no sense to me.
                    Jim there is no PURPOSE for being born there is no PURPOSE for life in an atheistic universe. Your argument fails, the only reason why our survival is a good is because we SAY SO.
                    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by seer View Post
                      Jim there is no PURPOSE for being born there is no PURPOSE for life in an atheistic universe. Your argument fails, the only reason why our survival is a good is because we SAY SO.
                      Depends on what you mean by purpose. The purpose of nature doesn't require a mind. The purpose of life is obviously to live. Whether you agree with that or not, we still all have that same subjective desire to survive and not to suffer unnecessarily, in other words it's in our best interests, and that which we consider to be good or evil is relative to that objective fact.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by seer View Post
                        So let me ask you, could both propositions be true?:

                        1. The laws of logic are absolute.

                        2. The laws of logic are not absolute.

                        I would say no, because I prefer classical logic, and because it makes communication with others (who generally also prefer classical logic) easier. But if I were into dialetheism, I might say "yes and no" (i.e. the conjunction of the two statements is both true and false). (OTOH, the dialetheist might just say "no", since they don't say that all contradictions are both true and false; just some of them.)

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by seer View Post
                          Jim there is no PURPOSE for being born there is no PURPOSE for life in an atheistic universe. Your argument fails, the only reason why our survival is a good is because we SAY SO.
                          Everyone, be aware that seer once claimed God sent him a visual sign of a "floating fern plant" during a particularly distressing time of doubt in his life.

                          IOW, seer doubted his purpose and God sent him a concrete visual sign to convince seer of God's existence.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by whag View Post
                            Everyone, be aware that seer once claimed God sent him a visual sign of a "floating fern plant" during a particularly distressing time of doubt in his life.

                            IOW, seer doubted his purpose and God sent him a concrete visual sign to convince seer of God's existence.
                            What is your point Whag? I think most Christians have moments of doubt.
                            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by seer View Post
                              Jim there is no PURPOSE for being born there is no PURPOSE for life in an atheistic universe. Your argument fails, the only reason why our survival is a good is because we SAY SO.
                              Human beings ascribe purpose to their lives. No human being is born for a purpose.

                              The universe does not give the proverbial about what happens on this pale blue dot that we call home.
                              "It ain't necessarily so
                              The things that you're liable
                              To read in the Bible
                              It ain't necessarily so
                              ."

                              Sportin' Life
                              Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by seer View Post
                                What is your point Whag? I think most Christians have moments of doubt.
                                Thanks for asking. I think the point is that God endeavors to communicate physical violation signs to SOME doubting Christians while somehow leaving skeptics in the lurch when they ask for proof.

                                Can I ask what specifically you were doubting?

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