Originally posted by Leonhard
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How do you attempt to rationalise with the completely irrational?
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Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostOnly that His moral character is the standard for goodness. There is no independent or competing standard for goodness.
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Originally posted by JimL View PostActually, I believe I did. In the moral sense, good is whatever behaviors are in the best interests of human society, of humanity as a whole. Or as Wm put it, whatever it is that prevents unnecessary suffering, aka evil. Nothing circular about that definition.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by Leonhard View PostI'm not sure there's any difference then, but why phrase it this way as if God decided what morality is, rather than us simply finding him to be the highest good? Seems a strange roundabout way.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostOK, I see your point.
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Originally posted by Leonhard View PostIt also has the advantage that you can refer to good people already know and remind them that those are reflections of God. There is goodness in those things, and in that way they already know something of what God is. It's a wonderful evangelical approach that I've used often. It also turns ordinary recognition of beauty or truth no matter how slight into devotion of God.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostActually NO YOU DIDN'T. Why is what is in the best interest of humanity a moral good? You can't get there without begging the question.
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Originally posted by seer View PostYes, but even if hell is eternal, that is not an evil - it is justice. Unless you can make the case, logically, that all suffering is evil. Good luck.
Originally posted by seer View PostSorry Charlie, you can't even define evil in a objective or universal or absolute sense. So the whole argument is moot. And the future ending of evil certainly meets the objection.
Originally posted by seer View PostAnd it is certainly logically possible that God allows temporary evil for a greater good
Originally posted by seer View PostOf course Epicurus has no standard, he has no grounds to make the argument. What/who defines evil, are bad thoughts evil? Stealing a paper clip? No standard exists that is not relative or based on opinion - therefore the argument has no merit."Yes. President Trump is a huge embarrassment. And it’s an embarrassment to evangelical Christianity that there appear to be so many who will celebrate precisely the aspects that I see Biblically as most lamentable and embarrassing." Southern Baptist leader Albert Mohler Jr.
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Originally posted by Charles View PostInterestingly low standard for justice. Many Christians believe you will spend an eternity in Hell if you don't believe in Jesus. That - in their interpretation - includes the children who were tortured and died in the concentration camps. You are now talking along the lines of calling their even worse suffering just? Or what exactly are you trying to talk yourself out of, seer? And you would not want your children suffering forever. But yet, we are supposed to believe a perfect being would want the human beings he created to suffer forever? Good luck explaining that. As to whether all suffering is evil... This thread is comming to the breaking point with all sorts of bad excuses as to why your "almighty" good who is supposed to be perfectly good is allowing it. But if you hold such a low standard that Hell is not a problem, I hardly know where to start. As you go on to promote the idea your circular logic is not a problem it is not only bad morals but also bad logic you support.
I knew you were going to go for the "you cannot define", "you have no standard" thing like you always do. Let's just cut it very short here, seer: You yourself acknowledge evil exists since you claim it will end. So, we are not discussing any defition, standard or whatever. We are asking you to explain why something you yourself say exists actually exists. Go on, seer, explain. Future ending is of course no explanation as to why evil exists now. That was the question you were asked, why does it exist, why is it allowed for. I can see why you would like to pretend you were asked a different question since you obviously cannot answer it. Now be honest seer and admit you have got no answer.
https://www.josh.org/10-biblical-rea...ows-suffering/
https://www.zachariastrust.org/if-god-why-suffering
https://www.reasonablefaith.org/vide...am-lane-craig/
And it is certainly possible that an almighty God could achieve this greater good without allowing for the temporary evil. You believe God is almighty, right, seer?
And yet you yourself admit that evil exists though you claim god is good and almighty. So, why don't you answer his question when you agree that evil exists. And when it comes to standards, you have come exactly nowhere explaining why your God, whom you claim is a self defined source of good (circular statement), is allowing for evil. Thus God, you standard, is one you cannot in anyway even start to defend. And you claim that those who point that out have no standard?Last edited by seer; 08-04-2020, 11:16 AM.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by JimL View PostBecause the best interests of human beings living together is what morality pertains to regardless of the existence of a source. To argue that it is morally wrong to murder or rob someone without a reasoned basis for that argument is circular. Simply because a god says it's not "good" is not a reason based argument for morality, it's circular.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostThat is not what I asked Jim, why is what is in the best interest of humanity a moral good? Why is the survival of humanity a moral good?
JimL also isn't begging the question in asserting a certain system of ethics, with certain end goals, that's not what begging the question means (it isn't circular logic). Though it might be wrong or in poor evidence which is different.
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Originally posted by Leonhard View PostI don't think this makes sense seer. Though I also disagree with JimL's definition. Goodness can be defined in a way where it's possible to learn objectively what it is.
JimL also isn't begging the question in asserting a certain system of ethics, with certain end goals, that's not what begging the question means (it isn't circular logic). Though it might be wrong or in poor evidence which is different.Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostThat is not what I asked Jim, why is what is in the best interest of humanity a moral good? Why is the survival of humanity a moral good?Last edited by JimL; 08-04-2020, 03:34 PM.
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Originally posted by JimL View PostHave you even thought about that? Is it not in your best interests to survive, not to suffer unnecesarily, not to be robbed, etc etc? If so, then wouldn't you call those things good and their opposites evils. Morality is just the term we use to define those interests as a society whether they be good (in our intersts, or evil, opposed to our interests. In other words morality is reason based. Your argument is not, it's simply good or evil "because god says so".Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s
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Originally posted by seer View PostNot sure how you do that.
I didn't say it was, that was not the point or the question I was asking, which was: why is what is in the best interest of humanity a moral good? Or to put it more succinctly, why is the survival of humanity a moral good? He can only answer that by either begging the question or using a circular argument.
I answer that it is good to survive, because humans are oriented towards staying alive. Being alive is our natural state. It is really that simple. In fact I'd consider it so obvious that it is up to you seer to provide good reasons why should doubt it. That the conclusion is based on human observations and reasons, which might be wrong, is not enough of an argument. Calling it merely a subjective opinoin is also doesn't work as a response, I am talking here of objective features of humanity. They're easily studied, easily verified and there's nothing controversial about this. Furthermore for humans there is even greater reasons to stay alive than for animals (who also mostly try to avoid death). Our minds are oriented towards seeking truth and finding meaning. If a human dies, then this will private the possibility of that and prevent a human from acquiring its good.
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