Announcement

Collapse

Civics 101 Guidelines

Want to argue about politics? Healthcare reform? Taxes? Governments? You've come to the right place!

Try to keep it civil though. The rules still apply here.
See more
See less

How do you attempt to rationalise with the completely irrational?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Originally posted by seer View Post
    I would say no, unless you believe that the sun existing and not existing at the same moment is possible. I don't see how we could observe such a thing - it would be a rational deduction based on how we know the world works. I don't think such a counterexample could be seen or known.
    How we know the world works is observation and induction, which doesn't provide for rational certainty. The inability to imagine a counterexample doesn't prove that there won't be one.

    But they are not made up rules so to speak. They are rules gleaned from what we know of nature. They need to be more than mere mere conventions.
    They are more than mere conventions, in that they are based on the way we think, and the language we are taught at a very early age. And they are reinforced whenever we reason with someone.

    None of this makes them absolute, though.

    How would you even get that far, induction being an informal fallacy.
    There are inductive fallacies, but that doesn't mean that induction in general is fallacious.

    Intelligible universe.
    If the universe weren't (at least somewhat) intelligible, we wouldn't be here to talk about it.

    Maybe the part of the universe that is intelligible is only an infinitesimal fraction of the whole thing. If intelligent beings were going to evolve anywhere, thought, it would be in that part.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Stoic View Post
      How we know the world works is observation and induction, which doesn't provide for rational certainty. The inability to imagine a counterexample doesn't prove that there won't be one.
      So you think it is at least possible for you to both exist and not exist at the same moment.


      They are more than mere conventions, in that they are based on the way we think, and the language we are taught at a very early age. And they are reinforced whenever we reason with someone.

      None of this makes them absolute, though.
      If there is nothing absolute at the bottom of all this then truth is unattainable.

      There are inductive fallacies, but that doesn't mean that induction in general is fallacious.
      Well yes, if you are looking for truth and reality.


      If the universe weren't (at least somewhat) intelligible, we wouldn't be here to talk about it.
      And?

      Maybe the part of the universe that is intelligible is only an infinitesimal fraction of the whole thing. If intelligent beings were going to evolve anywhere, thought, it would be in that part.
      As far as we know the universe is intelligible. There are certain universal constants.
      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

      Comment


      • Originally posted by seer View Post
        So you think it is at least possible for you to both exist and not exist at the same moment.
        If the reason for thinking it's impossible is that it would be a contradiction, and we've never observed a contradiction, then I would have to say it's possible, however improbable it might be.

        But given the limits of our language, if it did turn out that I could both exist and not exist at the same moment, we would have to invent some third state that isn't exactly equivalent to existing or to not existing. (Some sort of quantum superposition, if you will.)

        If there is nothing absolute at the bottom of all this then truth is unattainable.
        I don't see why.

        Well yes, if you are looking for truth and reality.
        Science looks for truth and reality, and makes heavy use of induction.

        As far as we know the universe is intelligible. There are certain universal constants.
        And we know those universal constants have been constant for about 14 billion years, and at distances up to more than ten billion light years away. (IOW, for a relatively short time in our little corner of the universe.)

        Comment


        • Originally posted by seer View Post
          So again Jim, why is our survival a good?
          I don't know, don't seem to be getting through to you no matter how many times I say it. Perhaps if you answer the question yourself you'll hit on my answer. So, why is your survival good, seer?

          Comment


          • Originally posted by JimL View Post
            I don't know, don't seem to be getting through to you no matter how many times I say it. Perhaps if you answer the question yourself you'll hit on my answer. So, why is your survival good, seer?
            Because God says so. And Jim you are not saying anything, no matter how you couch it our survival is a good only because we say so.
            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Stoic View Post
              I don't see why.


              Science looks for truth and reality, and makes heavy use of induction.
              I don't see how science can discover truth or reality if you can not trust the LONC to be absolute. Everything we think we know, in principle, can be completely wrong.
              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

              Comment


              • Originally posted by seer View Post
                So again Jim, why is our survival a good?
                It is our perception. The most powerful instinct of human beings is the instinct to survive, as is evidenced by those who desire to survive forever.
                “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by seer View Post
                  Well I take you at your word that you are a female [snipped for irrelevance].
                  Precisely. Just as I take you at your word that you are male and that you had your experience when you were 61 which, given you posted that account in late July 2014, would indicate you are now in your late sixties.

                  However, neither your nor I can know with 100% certainty that everything the other states about themselves is correct, and that was simply the point I was making.

                  I would have assumed that most people could have recognised my point without the need to labour it.
                  "It ain't necessarily so
                  The things that you're liable
                  To read in the Bible
                  It ain't necessarily so
                  ."

                  Sportin' Life
                  Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                    Precisely. Just as I take you at your word that you are male and that you had your experience when you were 61 which, given you posted that account in late July 2014, would indicate you are now in your late sixties.

                    However, neither your nor I can know with 100% certainty that everything the other states about themselves is correct, and that was simply the point I was making.

                    I would have assumed that most people could have recognised my point without the need to labour it.
                    Can we know some things for certain?
                    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by seer View Post
                      Can we know some things for certain?
                      Insofar as what contributors to this medium tell us about themselves, no. We take their word. We can do no more.

                      I therefore accept your word that you are a male in your late sixties.
                      "It ain't necessarily so
                      The things that you're liable
                      To read in the Bible
                      It ain't necessarily so
                      ."

                      Sportin' Life
                      Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                        Insofar as what contributors to this medium tell us about themselves, no. We take their word. We can do no more.

                        I therefore accept your word that you are a male in your late sixties.
                        I'm just asking a general question - can we know anything for certain?
                        Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by seer View Post
                          Because God says so. And Jim you are not saying anything, no matter how you couch it our survival is a good only because we say so.
                          And does god say that our survival is good because it is good, or is it good because god says so? In other words does your survival being a good thing have nothing at all to do with you, or what you think or feel? Supposing you are terminally ill and suffering unbearable pain, is your continued suffering a good thing because god says survival is good? When you say that "because god says so" you are defining god as a determined thing.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by seer View Post
                            I'm just asking a general question - can we know anything for certain?
                            Not with absolute/infallible certainty, no.

                            We can know things well enough to have a practical certainty about them. We can be confident that the Earth will continue rotating on its axis tomorrow, even though it's technically possible that something might happen to prevent that (ie. supernova, catastrophic solar flare, microscopic black hole collision, etc).

                            The same is true with logic

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Whateverman View Post
                              Not with absolute/infallible certainty, no.
                              So you can't be certain that you exist?

                              The same is true with logic
                              Again,

                              1. The laws of logic are absolute.

                              2. The laws of logic are not absolute.


                              Are both these true?
                              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                                And does god say that our survival is good because it is good, or is it good because god says so? In other words does your survival being a good thing have nothing at all to do with you, or what you think or feel? Supposing you are terminally ill and suffering unbearable pain, is your continued suffering a good thing because god says survival is good? When you say that "because god says so" you are defining god as a determined thing.
                                Jim it doesn't matter, God's say so is enough because like our say so that is all there is.
                                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                                Comment

                                Related Threads

                                Collapse

                                Topics Statistics Last Post
                                Started by little_monkey, 03-27-2024, 04:19 PM
                                16 responses
                                179 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post One Bad Pig  
                                Started by whag, 03-26-2024, 04:38 PM
                                53 responses
                                413 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Mountain Man  
                                Started by rogue06, 03-26-2024, 11:45 AM
                                25 responses
                                114 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post rogue06
                                by rogue06
                                 
                                Started by Hypatia_Alexandria, 03-26-2024, 09:21 AM
                                33 responses
                                198 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Roy
                                by Roy
                                 
                                Started by Hypatia_Alexandria, 03-26-2024, 08:34 AM
                                84 responses
                                383 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post JimL
                                by JimL
                                 
                                Working...
                                X