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God’s Word?

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
    Umm, no. I specified what I meant. I have no reason to trust your assertion on this. You obviously don't understand "magic" either. Why am I not surprised.
    But you are still wrong. The truth is so obvious:
    As we have seen, God deliberately tests Adam with the choice of the two trees. His question to Adam is whether he is mature enough to challenge his father and go into the world alone. The challenge does have consequences, as it must. At the end of the story, Adam has achieved godlike maturity and his Father proudly gives his parting gift. Adam did not fall.
    “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
    “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
    “not all there” - you know who you are

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
      But you are still wrong. The truth is so obvious:
      As we have seen, God deliberately tests Adam with the choice of the two trees. His question to Adam is whether he is mature enough to challenge his father and go into the world alone. The challenge does have consequences, as it must. At the end of the story, Adam has achieved godlike maturity and his Father proudly gives his parting gift. Adam did not fall.

      Yeah, losing his immortality, his innocence, his place in the most beautiful garden there ever was; and gaining a limited lifespan, a broken relationship with God, trouble and strife is surely not a fall.

      Adam and his descendants exhibit their godlike maturity until this very day. Just look at Professional wrestling, or Japanese game shows, or Thai soap operas, or football hooligans, or... ...yourself in the mirror.


      </sarcasm>
      ...>>> Witty remark or snarky quote of another poster goes here <<<...

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
        But you are still wrong. The truth is so obvious:
        As we have seen, God deliberately tests Adam with the choice of the two trees. His question to Adam is whether he is mature enough to challenge his father and go into the world alone. The challenge does have consequences, as it must. At the end of the story, Adam has achieved godlike maturity and his Father proudly gives his parting gift. Adam did not fall.
        Yes, the truth is obvious. You are being deliberately inflammatory, aka a troll.

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
          Yes, the truth is obvious. You are being deliberately inflammatory, aka a troll.
          In case you hadn’t noticed, this is an Atheism/Agnosticism v. Theism forum, so why would it not be inflammatory? There are no disagreements quite like religious ones.
          “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
          “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
          “not all there” - you know who you are

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
            But you are still wrong. The truth is so obvious:
            As we have seen, God deliberately tests Adam with the choice of the two trees. His question to Adam is whether he is mature enough to challenge his father and go into the world alone. The challenge does have consequences, as it must. At the end of the story, Adam has achieved godlike maturity and his Father proudly gives his parting gift. Adam did not fall.
            Even some Evangelicals acknowledge that the Adam and Eve story cannot be literally true:

            http://www.opposingviews.com/i/relig...e-adam-and-eve

            It's value in my view, as with much scripture, is as analogy or metaphor. Your analogizing of it makes a lot of sense I think, i.e. it's a 'coming of age' story.
            “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by MaxVel View Post
              Yeah, losing his immortality, his innocence, his place in the most beautiful garden there ever was; and gaining a limited lifespan, a broken relationship with God, trouble and strife is surely not a fall.

              Adam and his descendants exhibit their godlike maturity until this very day. Just look at Professional wrestling, or Japanese game shows, or Thai soap operas, or football hooligans, or... ...yourself in the mirror.


              </sarcasm>
              You mean as opposed to the godlike maturity of God Himself, as depicted in the OT:

              http://commonsenseatheism.com/?p=682

              It rather leaves "professional wrestling, or Japanese game shows, or Thai soap operas..." in the shade doesn't it? BTW: My wife loves Thai soap operas. They might be banal, but hardly decadent.
              “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                Even some Evangelicals acknowledge that the Adam and Eve story cannot be literally true:
                http://www.opposingviews.com/i/relig...e-adam-and-eve
                It's value in my vew, as with much scripture, is as analogy or metaphor. Your analogizing of it makes a lot of sense I think, i.e. it's a 'coming of age' story.
                There is a good article here.
                http://advocatusatheist.blogspot.co....g-of-myth.html
                I first read about this in one of Joseph Campbell’s books.
                Christians tend to miss the lie and the sexual aspect and focus instead on disobedience because they are utterly obsessed by Sin, especially other people’s sin.
                I’m just having a quick rant.
                “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
                “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
                “not all there” - you know who you are

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
                  The truth is so obvious: [...]Adam has achieved godlike maturity and his Father proudly gives his parting gift. Adam did not fall.
                  This is completely true, except for the small fact that it's contrary to the entire book of Genesis. Just out of curiosity, have you even read it? That might be a good start before throwing out wild theories.

                  Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
                  I feel that the purpose of the story is to explain why mankind is both godlike in his dominion over nature and yet still mortal.
                  Cool story, bro. I feel hungry, so genesis was actually about how humans crave food, just as Adam ate from the tree. Feelings don't play into what Genesis is. Provisions of rational evidence to back up a point is what counts.

                  Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
                  It is not disobedience because God wants Adam to choose. God provides the tree of knowledge precisely so that a choice would have to be made and He forces the issue by ordering Adam not to eat it. In other words, Adam can have the tree of life and remain innocent like a child or have the tree of knowledge and be like God, only mortal. If God is upset at Adam’s choice He is not so upset that He kills anyone. In fact, God even makes garments for the couple – this is not a hostile act but a loving one. The expulsion from the garden hints at panic and fear of Adam’s new godlike power. Adam is now empowered; determined to be his own man and not be the possession of any god. The various curses are there to explain why something like childbirth is so dangerous.
                  There are countless assertions like this one that are completely without merit, and you make no effort to back them. If you think you can sneak them in there without us noticing their bogus nature, you were wrong.

                  Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
                  It is a wonderful story but it was never written with the intention of being the first instalment in a much greater narrative as in the Christian tradition. It has been adopted and reinterpreted by Christianity. Christianity, unfortunately, is obsessed with very negative emotions like sin and punishment. I put it to you that if you abolish the idea of sin you will not see The Fall in the Genesis story.
                  This statement is it's own defense against it. Nothing more needs to be said.

                  Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
                  I think Joseph Campbell saw it as being about the transition from innocent, carefree childhood to responsible, hard working and hazardous adulthood. I can see why. It helps when reading it to remember that it is pre-Christian mythology.
                  No words can describe how fail this is.

                  Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
                  Christians tend to miss the lie and the sexual aspect and focus instead on disobedience because they are utterly obsessed by Sin, especially other people’s sin.
                  I’m just having a quick rant.
                  Apart from the long ones, is anything you say NOT a quick rant?

                  I honestly can't tell if everything you say is intentionally as wrong as possible for the sake of trolling, or just wildly mislead to the point of amusement.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    @Shadow Templar, firstfloor is a . He thinks that anyone identifying him as such has been "stumped" by him, despite arguments given that show his assertions to be invalid. He said I was a "stumped Christian" as soon as I decided to quit playing his troll games.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Shadow Templar View Post
                      .............. I honestly can't tell if everything you say is intentionally as wrong as possible for the sake of trolling, or just wildly mislead to the point of amusement.
                      Does that mean you disagree? That's okay. It is a strange idea at first sight if you have been brought up in the Christian tradition.
                      “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
                      “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
                      “not all there” - you know who you are

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
                        Does that mean you disagree? That's okay. It is a strange idea at first sight if you have been brought up in the Christian tradition.
                        No, it's a strange idea for anyone who's actually read Genesis.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
                          It is a strange idea at first sight if you have been brought up in the Christian tradition.
                          It is indeed a strange sight. I'm guess my Christian tradition didn't have enough horribly mislead people. I'll have to tell them to introduce a few trolls to effectively train us rational Christians, so it's not so much a shock when we see someone who can't figure out how logic works.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
                            No, it's a strange idea for anyone who's actually read Genesis.
                            What’s “strange” is not accepting that that the Genesis story cannot possibly be true in a literal sense. It’s utterly contrary to the well established genomic evidence. Even many Evangelical Christians concede this nowadays. By adopting your rigid stance you are left with the option of either discarding the Adam & Eve story altogether as quaint, but ultimately silly, mythology OR of analogizing it as FF has done. The latter course is more useful.
                            “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                              What’s “strange” is not accepting that that the Genesis story cannot possibly be true in a literal sense. It’s utterly contrary to the well established genomic evidence. Even many Evangelical Christians concede this nowadays. By adopting your rigid stance you are left with the option of either discarding the Adam & Eve story altogether as quaint, but ultimately silly, mythology OR of analogizing it as FF has done. The latter course is more useful.
                              There's a stark difference between accepting Genesis as not a literally account and accepting whatever FF is making up. One of them can still hold true to the rest of the bible. FF's fantasy is just that: a fantasy. It has no basis in any part of the bible, and fits nothing more than his imagination. Genesis being not a literal account does not reflect poorly on the legitimacy of the rest of the bible, nor contradict it, so I would hardly call that strange.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Shadow Templar View Post
                                There's a stark difference between accepting Genesis as not a literally account and accepting whatever FF is making up. One of them can still hold true to the rest of the bible. FF's fantasy is just that: a fantasy. It has no basis in any part of the bible, and fits nothing more than his imagination. Genesis being not a literal account does not reflect poorly on the legitimacy of the rest of the bible, nor contradict it, so I would hardly call that strange.
                                Once you accept that the Adam & Eve story is not to be taken literally, then is open to various interpretations, as we have seen with FF's ingenious interpretation. This doesn't diminish the traditional interpretation that's been in place since Paul first equated Jesus to the second Adam.
                                “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                                Comment

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