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I - an atheist - am morally better than the Christian God

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  • It's a high context document! And that bit about not adding or taking away is for Revelation! And, technically speaking, everything belongs to Him. You really think the disciples could take it if the owner minded?

    http://www.tektonics.org/af/donkeythief.php
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    Printed from http://tektonics.org/donkeythief.php
    Did Jesus steal that donkey?

    Luke 19:29-34 "[Jesus] sent two of his disciples, Saying, Go ye into the village . . . ye shall find a colt tied, whereon yet never man sat: loose him, and bring him hither. And if any man ask you, Why do ye loose him? thus shall ye say unto him, Because the Lord hath need of him. . . . And as they were loosing the colt, the owners thereof said unto them, Why loose ye the colt? And they said, The Lord hath need of him." (parallels in Matthew

    Some Skeptics want to accuse Jesus of misapprhending the property of others here. But simply put, we may ask, if the disciples were stealing the colt on Jesus' behalf, and committing a criminal act, why did the owners let them take it?

    If someone walks up to your brand new bright red Corvette, takes the keys, gets in, and starts revving up, you will certainly ask (in a less than rational tone, naturally) "Why are you taking my car?" And I very much doubt that you would be satisfied with the answer, "God needs it." If you hadn't already punched the guy's lights out, your next step would be to call the men in the white coats and the police.

    Obviously, that didn't happen here -- the owners made no effort to stop what was going on, and the disciples were allowed to leave with the colt unhindered. So there is obviously more to this story.

    Many Skeptics have charged that in riding the colt into Jerusalem, Jesus was intentionally trying to fulfill Zechariah 9:9. And I agree - this was a deliberate act by Jesus. (It could hardly be otherwise; not many people ride a donkey by accident.) This, and the fact that the disciples were allowed to take the colt with a minimum of fuss, strongly suggests that the owners knew what was going on and had been approached by Jesus beforehand concerning use of the colt (or, at the very least, knew who Jesus was and had no objection).

    Jesus probably bought or rented the services of the animals, or else been granted permission to use them; then he told the owners, "I will send my disciples to pick up the colt. Here is how you will know them...." (Obviously, it would not be fitting for the Messiah to walk over and get the donkey himself.) Ask them why they are untying it.

    It's also possible - maybe probable - that he sent Judas to arrange the whole thing; from the Gospel of John, we know that he was the group's treasurer, and we gather that it was not unusual for Jesus to send him on errands that the other disciples didn't know about.

    A bit too cloak-and-dagger to be believable? Not really; judging by the accompanying tumult when Jesus rode in, it was likely that the people were to interpret this as a sign that Jesus was about to fulfill the expected Messianic role of defeating the Romans. So understandably, Jesus would want to keep the whole affair under wraps until the proper time.

    Someone also suggested to me that there was no advance permission, but that the owners of the animals knew of Jesus' reputation and gladly conceded to their use on account of that. If that is so, then the divine aspect of Jesus had foreknowledge of their acceptance, and again, there is no thievery.

    Or else, as Harvey notes in Jesus and the Constraints of History (123), Jesus was simply exercising what at the time was the normal right of a king, general, or "even a respected rabbi" to procure transportation for himself. The phrase 'the master needs it' would be sufficient for the loan, provided the person's authority was recognized, which Jesus' evidently was - and again, no thievery. (Harvey also notes that Jesus in this episode adhered properly to the Jewish laws concerning borrowing.)

    There is not a thing that is "gratuitous" about a pre-arranged scenario like this one: if it was not pre-arranged, how did Jesus manage to get the room? Some may anachronistically appeal to the way their own relatives always have a guest room ready whether someone was coming or not, but this will not hold for a room that held a dozen or more people.

    We may add, finally, that since God owns everything, how can the Son of God taking anything be stealing?
    Last edited by Christianbookworm; 08-02-2020, 06:01 PM.
    If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Whateverman View Post
      Donkey not horse, you're right.

      Scripture doesn't say anything about borrowing or even asking, though. Indeed, Luke 19: 29 - 36 makes it pretty clear that the horse is being taken by authority; it's not a request.

      I respectfully understand and sympathize with the desire to interpret that the horse was happily lent/given to the disciples - but the bible doesn't say this. And the bible is pretty clear about not adding to God's Word...

      Scripture Verse: Matthew 21:3 NIV

      If anyone says anything to you, say that the Lord needs them, and he will send them right away

      © Copyright Original Source



      Here's an idea, Jesus was already acquainted with the owner of the donkey, and had already made preparations to borrow the donkey. How else would he know that it would be ok for him to send his disciples to fetch it?

      Comment


      • Originally posted by JimL View Post
        And Adams nature was inherited by his parent. That's how it works.
        Adam was created. he had no parents.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by hypatia_alexandria View Post
          he cursed the poor fig tree for not being in fruit when he wanted something to eat. When he created the universe he must surely have decided the fruiting seasons of the fig and therefore known it would not be in fruit at that particular point in time.

          He also engaged in a bout of vandalism as well as some assault and battery when he cleared the temple.
          lol

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Whateverman View Post
            I don't need to do anything of the sort:
            • Christians are the ones asserting that my idea would prevent humans from being born, so before I'm burdened with showing anything, their assertion needs to be supported. And given the disagreement amongst them about just how sinful the un/newly born are, I'd say you've got a prohibitively steep hill to climb.
            • Even if my idea causes no one to be born, I've still created a sinless universe, free from evil - which reiterates my moral superiority over the Christian God.
            You are the one who is claiming to be morally superior to the Christian God. That means you are using the Christian framework to compare your morality to. Which means you have to accept what Christians believe as part of your comparison, or your comparison is meaningless.

            If you were to do as you claim, there would be nobody born. Your empty universe free of evil and of people would be pitiful. and morally inferior to a universe ultimately peopled with glorified humans who freely chose to follow God.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
              Adam was created. he had no parents.
              So was their DNA.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                You are the one who is claiming to be morally superior to the Christian God. That means you are using the Christian framework to compare your morality to. Which means you have to accept what Christians believe as part of your comparison, or your comparison is meaningless.
                The reverse is true. Morality already exists without God. The Christian god (and ALL gods) exhibit the evolved moral standards of the day as attributed by the men who created them in their own image. And these morals and rules of behavior have varied from era to era.
                “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                  You are the one who is claiming to be morally superior to the Christian God. That means you are using the Christian framework to compare your morality to. Which means you have to accept what Christians believe as part of your comparison, or your comparison is meaningless.
                  This is almost a good point.

                  Technically, no, I don't not have to accept what Christians believe; I have to accept what Christianity teaches. So far, all I've seen WRT this particular chalenge is what a few Christians believe.

                  Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                  If you were to do as you claim, there would be nobody born.
                  Again, that's your opinion. I've seen no evidence that it's reflective of reality in the Christian worldview.

                  As I wrote previously, Christians can't decide on whether a fetus is sin-free or not, which undermines the effectiveness of your challenge.
                  Last edited by Whateverman; 08-04-2020, 01:34 AM.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by MaxVel View Post
                    If God is the only true source of all that is really good, and free creatures freely choose to isolate themselves from God, what is God to do? Steamroll over their free will?

                    I think it was CS Lewis that said that the gates of hell are barred on the inside.
                    And I think C.S. Lewis (and you) are extremely naive to promote such "explanations". People suffer forever, but they could leave but don't want to? Or what is it you are trying to promote. Who, exactly, suffers forever at their own free will, under what conditions and why? And why did the bible not in itself explain it. Why did C.S. Lewis have to come up with the "explanation"?
                    "Yes. President Trump is a huge embarrassment. And it’s an embarrassment to evangelical Christianity that there appear to be so many who will celebrate precisely the aspects that I see Biblically as most lamentable and embarrassing." Southern Baptist leader Albert Mohler Jr.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                      Here is the real problem of evil: Why do any of us freely choose to do wrong when it is in our power to do right? How can we in anyway blame God for our own conscious, wilful, and deliberate choices?
                      So you believe it is possible for a human being to live without any sin at all? Many Christians would say we are born as sinners.

                      And: Why does God allow for some people to use their free will in order to take away other peoples free will or even take away their life? If it is to allow for human freedom it seems absurd that he is at the same time allowing for the destroying of that very freedom.
                      Last edited by Charles; 08-04-2020, 10:55 AM.
                      "Yes. President Trump is a huge embarrassment. And it’s an embarrassment to evangelical Christianity that there appear to be so many who will celebrate precisely the aspects that I see Biblically as most lamentable and embarrassing." Southern Baptist leader Albert Mohler Jr.

                      Comment


                      • Feral cats have a lower standard of living than cats with a good home and Owner. Now, sadly the feral cats are too wild to be tamed, so it's better to leave them be than to catch them. They'd spend all their time hiding in terror of the unknown being that's captured them. Now a tame stray would be happy to be taken to a nice home where all their needs are met and in return, they are a loyal kitty. Kittens are easy to tame, so they get in said Home. Yes, I just compared humans to cats. You could do the same with tame sheep and feral goats. You can't keep a wild animal as a pet. You can't kidnap a street kid and force them to live under you roof.
                        If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Christianbookworm View Post
                          Feral cats have a lower standard of living than cats with a good home and Owner. Now, sadly the feral cats are too wild to be tamed, so it's better to leave them be than to catch them. They'd spend all their time hiding in terror of the unknown being that's captured them. Now a tame stray would be happy to be taken to a nice home where all their needs are met and in return, they are a loyal kitty. Kittens are easy to tame, so they get in said Home. Yes, I just compared humans to cats. You could do the same with tame sheep and feral goats. You can't keep a wild animal as a pet. You can't kidnap a street kid and force them to live under you roof.
                          Only a broken society would have "street-kids" in the first place.
                          “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                            So was their DNA.
                            Their DNA changed when they sinned. They were no longer perfect. No longer immortal, and had a sin nature. Which they passed on to their children.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Whateverman View Post
                              This is almost a good point.

                              Technically, no, I don't not have to accept what Christians believe; I have to accept what Christianity teaches. So far, all I've seen WRT this particular chalenge is what a few Christians believe.


                              Again, that's your opinion. I've seen no evidence that it's reflective of reality in the Christian worldview.

                              As I wrote previously, Christians can't decide on whether a fetus is sin-free or not, which undermines the effectiveness of your challenge.
                              You have seen no evidence of it because you know nothing about Christianity or the bible. You are suffering from dunning-kruger syndrome where you believe your ignorance is expertise.

                              Everyone is a sinner:

                              Romans 3

                              No One Is Righteous

                              9 What shall we conclude then? Do we have any advantage? Not at all! For we have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under the power of sin. 10 As it is written:

                              “There is no one righteous, not even one;
                              11 there is no one who understands;
                              there is no one who seeks God.
                              12 All have turned away,
                              they have together become worthless;
                              there is no one who does good,
                              not even one.”
                              13 “Their throats are open graves;
                              their tongues practice deceit.”
                              “The poison of vipers is on their lips.”
                              14 “Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness.”
                              15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood;
                              16 ruin and misery mark their ways,
                              17 and the way of peace they do not know.”
                              18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”


                              The only person who was ever sinless was Jesus:

                              Hebrews 4:15
                              For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin.

                              1 John 3:5
                              You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin

                              These are core doctrines of Christianity: We are all sinners and need Christ as our Savior to be saved from our sins.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                                Their DNA changed when they sinned. They were no longer perfect. No longer immortal, and had a sin nature. Which they passed on to their children.
                                How is it they sinned in the first place then if they were created perfect with a non sin nature?

                                Comment

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