Announcement

Collapse

Apologetics 301 Guidelines

If you think this is the area where you tell everyone you are sorry for eating their lunch out of the fridge, it probably isn't the place for you


This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.


Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less

I - an atheist - am morally better than the Christian God

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Originally posted by Christianbookworm View Post
    It's like a choose your own adventure book. God knows what each page holds and knows what would have happened. If you made a different choice, He'd know you made that choice. Knowledge by itself doesn't effect free choice. Only if He told you what choice you will make. That might be confusing.
    An omniscient creator god would know, by virtue of being omniscient, precisely what you will choose. So, when are you supposed to have made your choices? They were ‘baked in’ before you actually existed.
    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
      An omniscient creator god would know, by virtue of being omniscient, precisely what you will choose. So, when are you supposed to have made your choices? They were ‘baked in’ before you actually existed.
      Even worse, an omniscient God can never have the power to change your mind. Omniscience precludes omnipotence.
      Last edited by Whateverman; 07-27-2020, 11:57 PM.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Whateverman View Post
        Even worse, an omniscient God can never have the power to change your mind. Omniscience precludes omnipotence.
        Now that's an excellent perception. I never thought of that one. Come to think of it, Gods omniscience would also preclude his own free will.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Whateverman View Post
          Here's why: I know how to rid the universe of evil without impacting the free will of its inhabitants. Even better, I will do this the instant I'm granted the ability to do so.

          The Christian God already has this ability, and refuses to use it.

          This makes me morally superior to him.

          ---

          The problem of evil can be solved instantly in this way: prevent the birth of anyone who will freely choose to do evil.

          This avoids forcing people to make choices they wouldn't make themselves. Free will conundrum resolved, and all evil stopped; the universe becomes as sinless as heaven, and the need for Hell is gone.

          ---

          How do I apply for the promotion to godhood?
          Is it better to allow evil to exist, in order to allow some greater good to come of it, or to rid the world of all evil with the result that the resultant good is not as great as it could have been, had you done the former?

          I would suggest that a God that would allow evil in order to bring about a greater good, is morally superior to a God who would eradicate evil, in order to preserve the lesser good.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Whateverman View Post
            That's your assumption, not mine. Do your argument a solid and go beyond merely asserting it, and then expecting us to agree.
            If you are going to "solve" the problem of morality as presented by Christianity and claim to be "better than the Christian God," then you are working within the paradigm of Christianity, which is based on "We are all sinners, every one" and sin is "evil"

            You can't assert you are better than the Christian God and then change the rules of the game to suit yourself. If you are going to be better than the Christian God, then you have to solve the same problem the Christian God has with us: sin.

            There has been exactly ONE person born who fits your criteria of "not choosing evil," Jesus Christ.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Whateverman View Post
              This is a direct consequence of the prepubescent reasoning that makes up most of the discipline you think of as "Christian apologetics".

              Elevate the quality of your ridiculous dismissals of logic and common sense, and you'll suddenly hear criticism that - again - has risen to your level.
              I am downgrading my age estimate of you to 14.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                I'm not exactly sure what you mean by that, but I suspect you're taking issue my using a temporal term like "before" when discussing the knowledge of a timeless being, and I will concede that there are certain limitations in the English language and our own understanding of time that sometimes results in imperfect descriptions.
                I am taking issue with the notion, ". . . literally impossible for God to know . . . ." A tenet of mine regarding God is it is literally impossihle for God not to know. The exclusion being a role of the eternal Son of God on behalf of His Father.
                . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                  I am downgrading my age estimate of you to 14.
                  THAT high?
                  The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                  Comment


                  • Why do these fundy atheists keep thinking our God is like a teen torturing/playing with SIMs in a video game?!
                    If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                      If you are going to "solve" the problem of morality as presented by Christianity and claim to be "better than the Christian God," then you are working within the paradigm of Christianity, which is based on "We are all sinners, every one" and sin is "evil"
                      You can't assert you are better than the Christian God and then change the rules of the game to suit yourself. If you are going to be better than the Christian God, then you have to solve the same problem the Christian God has with us: sin.
                      To say that sin is evil is nothing more than to say that evil is sin. A circular argument that doesn't define what evil/sin is, nor does it address the argument of its objectivity.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                        THAT high?

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
                          Is it better to allow evil to exist, in order to allow some greater good to come of it, or to rid the world of all evil with the result that the resultant good is not as great as it could have been, had you done the former?

                          I would suggest that a God that would allow evil in order to bring about a greater good, is morally superior to a God who would eradicate evil, in order to preserve the lesser good.
                          What would be a greater good than the absence of evil?

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                            Yes, you really are. In fact, you should make that your Avatar.
                            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                              In fact he creates them specifically for those purposes, some people to reward, and some people to punish.
                              That's correct, he is the potter, and we are the clay.

                              It describes the people as being robots, determined by god to do exactly what god determined them to do. Paul then describes god as being angry, angry at his own created beings for doing the evil that he engineered them to do. How silly! There goes your free will.
                              But I don't believe that people who are sinning have free will.

                              "Jesus replied, 'Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin.' " (John 8:34)

                              If any of what Paul says there in Romans 9:14-24 is true, then his god, your god, is nothing but a child and we nothing but his wind-up toys. You're not good, not obedient, you have no agency, you're determined, determined to be gods wind-up toy for eternity.
                              No, I believe that those who are in Christ have real freedom.

                              "So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed." (John 8:36)

                              Originally posted by Whateverman
                              God doesn't need something for us to overcome in order to reward us.
                              Well then, that would be a gift, not a reward.

                              Originally posted by Tassman
                              You make God needing to show mercy sound like a good thing. But, disobedience and evil under any circumstances is surely not good, especially just so as God can show what a super-loving deity he is. He set humankind up for failure solely for the purpose of forgiving it. It's manipulative, he didn’t have to do it this way.
                              But how can God show mercy, unless there is a need for mercy?

                              Blessings,
                              Lee
                              "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                                That's correct, he is the potter, and we are the clay.
                                Yep, exactly, and according to paul god created, engineered if you will, a bunch of robots, some engineered to do good, and some engineered to do evil.

                                But I don't believe that people who are sinning have free will.

                                "Jesus replied, 'Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin.' " (John 8:34)
                                Exactly, but not only that, you are determined to do whatever it is god engineered you to do. So according to Paul in Romans 9:14-24 you, just like Hitler, are not responsible for what you do, you have no agency, you're nothing but gods wind-up toy. No wonder god knows your future, he designed you that way.


                                No, I believe that those who are in Christ have real freedom.
                                Not really interested here in what you believe, Romans 9:14-24 tells us differently.
                                "So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed." (John 8:36)
                                Sets you free from what? Do you mean he changes you from a wind-up toy to a free willed being who is no longer a slave to sin. And yet you still sin, right?

                                Comment

                                Related Threads

                                Collapse

                                Topics Statistics Last Post
                                Started by whag, 03-27-2024, 03:01 PM
                                39 responses
                                213 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post whag
                                by whag
                                 
                                Started by whag, 03-17-2024, 04:55 PM
                                21 responses
                                132 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Hypatia_Alexandria  
                                Started by whag, 03-14-2024, 06:04 PM
                                80 responses
                                428 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post tabibito  
                                Started by whag, 03-13-2024, 12:06 PM
                                45 responses
                                305 views
                                1 like
                                Last Post Hypatia_Alexandria  
                                Started by rogue06, 12-26-2023, 11:05 AM
                                406 responses
                                2,518 views
                                2 likes
                                Last Post tabibito  
                                Working...
                                X