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I - an atheist - am morally better than the Christian God

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  • #91
    Originally posted by Whateverman View Post
    Christian philosophers have readily accepted that the problem is real, so you can't just wave it away without dismissing more than a thousand years of Christian thought and theology.
    Well according to Jesus not every professing Christian are Christians, Matthew 7:21-23.
    So how would you know the difference?

    The genuine Christians actually know God, John 13:34; 1 John 4:7. The countefeit do not.

    Traditional Christian apologetics start with arguing to answer the question, "Does God exist?". When genuine Christians know God Himself to be the uncaused reality, Acts 17:28, "In Him we live and move and have our being."
    Last edited by 37818; 07-26-2020, 10:53 AM.
    . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

    Comment


    • #92
      Originally posted by 37818 View Post
      Well according to Jesus not every professing Christian are Christians, Matthew 7:21-23.
      So how would you know the difference?

      The genuine Christians actually know God, John 13:34; 1 John 4:7. The countefiet do not.

      Traditional Christian apologetics start with arguing to answer the question, "Does God exist?". When genuine Christians know God Himself to be the uncaused reality, Acts 17:28, "In Him we live and move and have our being."
      We live and move and have our being in the universe of which we are a part. Are you, or is Paul suggesting that we are a part of god?

      Comment


      • #93
        Originally posted by JimL View Post
        But your plan isn't to just increase thelikelyhood that people would freely choose not to do evil, your plan is to create them in a way that prevents them from choosing to do evil. If they are prevented from freely choosing evil, then they must be determined to choose good. There seems to be a contradiction there between free and determined. That's the problem, among others of course, that I have always argued with christians concerning heaven. Their idea is something like yours, except that they have given me 2 arguments, one being that once in heaven they will freely choose to only do good, and the other being that god changes them, gives them a new and glorified body or some such thing in which like your idea, they are determined to do only good.
        The promised New Heaven and Earth those who enter into it will be those who will be enabled to do only the good: "And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life."
        . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

        . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

        Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

        Comment


        • #94
          Originally posted by JimL View Post
          We live and move and have our being in the universe of which we are a part. Are you, or is Paul suggesting that we are a part of god?
          No. If you are in a box, does that make you part of the box?
          . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

          . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

          Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

          Comment


          • #95
            Originally posted by 37818 View Post
            No. If you are in a box, does that make you part of the box?
            You and the box are in the universe and so are part of th universe.

            Comment


            • #96
              Originally posted by 37818 View Post
              The promised New Heaven and Earth those who enter into it will be those who will be enabled to do only the good: "And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life."
              That's opinion, not a supporting argument. How are you enabled to only do good? Does god change you so that you no longer sin? If so, why didn't he just do that in the first place instead of the crucible nonsense which obviously doesn't change human nature.

              Comment


              • #97
                Originally posted by JimL View Post
                You and the box are in the universe and so are part of the universe.
                JimL you are deliberately confusing distinctions.

                What is in a box is not the box.

                God is omnipresent and so everywhere.

                But created things are not God.

                The universe, one definition, the universe is everything.

                Everything would include God being in the universe. God and the universe are two distinct things.

                But the things in the universe are not the universe by reason those things are not everything, that are distinct individual things.

                God is everywhere.
                The universe is everything.
                God and the universe are two distinct things.
                The universe is not God.
                God is not the unvierse.

                Each of all the things that make up the unvierse are not individually the universe.
                Last edited by 37818; 07-26-2020, 11:38 AM.
                . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                Comment


                • #98
                  Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                  JimL you are deliberately confusing distinctions.

                  What is in a box is not the box.

                  God is omnipresent and so everywhere.

                  But created things are not God.

                  The universe, one definition, the universe is everything.

                  Everything would include God being in the universe. God and the universe are two distinct things.

                  But the things in the universe are not the universe by reason those things are not everything, that are distinct individual things.

                  God is everywhere.
                  The universe is everything.
                  God and the universe are two distinct things.
                  The universe is not God.
                  God is not the unvierse.

                  Each of all the things that make up the unvierse are not individually the universe.
                  I disagree with you're reasoning but I don't want to further derail whatevermans thread, so lets get it back on track.

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    Originally posted by JimL View Post
                    That's opinion, not a supporting argument. How are you enabled to only do good? Does god change you so that you no longer sin? If so, why didn't he just do that in the first place instead of the crucible nonsense which obviously doesn't change human nature.
                    That change is yet future, when Christ returns, He will make His people to then be sinless and immortal like He is.

                    There is a back story which is not being fully explained as to why it is not being all done from the start of this creation, Genesis 1:1.

                    I suggest you figure out how to know God first. John 7:17.
                    . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Whateverman View Post
                      The problem of evil can be solved instantly in this way: prevent the birth of anyone who will freely choose to do evil.

                      This avoids forcing people to make choices they wouldn't make themselves. Free will conundrum resolved, and all evil stopped; the universe becomes as sinless as heaven, and the need for Hell is gone.
                      God has a purpose for the wicked, though:

                      "What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory—even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?" (Ro 9:22–24)

                      And I believe we may hope that everyone will repent:

                      " Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all." (Ro 11:30–32)

                      So for God to show mercy, there has to be a need for mercy. And if there was nothing for people to overcome, what would there be to reward?

                      Blessings,
                      Lee
                      "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                        That change is yet future, when Christ returns, He will make His people to then be sinless and immortal like He is.

                        There is a back story which is not being fully explained as to why it is not being all done from the start of this creation, Genesis 1:1.

                        I suggest you figure out how to know God first. John 7:17.
                        I suggest you don't know the answer, or you'd surely answer it yourself.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                          God has a purpose for the wicked, though:

                          "What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory—even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?" (Ro 9:22–24)

                          And I believe we may hope that everyone will repent:

                          " Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all." (Ro 11:30–32)

                          So for God to show mercy, there has to be a need for mercy. And if there was nothing for people to overcome, what would there be to reward?

                          Blessings,
                          Lee
                          To suggest that god has a need to show mercy is to suggest god to be needy. And why for people should there be a need for reward?

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                            Doesn't being a troll get boring after a while? Doesn't misrepresenting people's views ever weigh on your so-called Christianity?
                            You have repeatedly expressed your support for allowing the parents to kill their newborn children weeks to months after they were born. This is not contestable. For you to claim otherwise is a deliberate lie.

                            I'm always still in trouble again

                            "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                            "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                            "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                              Originally posted by Whateverman View Post
                              Christian philosophers have readily accepted that the problem is real, so you can't just wave it away without dismissing more than a thousand years of Christian thought and theology.
                              Well according to Jesus not every professing Christian are Christians
                              So you're going to declare a millennium of Christian philosophy wrong simply because you want to win an anonymous debate on the internet?

                              I'm not buying it.

                              Prove the problem of evil isn't something Christian theology needs to address.

                              ps. People who are smarter and more knowledgeable than the two of us disagree.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                                [...] So for God to show mercy, there has to be a need for mercy. And if there was nothing for people to overcome, what would there be to reward?
                                Thanks for a sincere and unequivocal response to the OP.

                                You appear to be arguing that evil (as thus our inevitable shortcomings) is necessary in order for God to show us mercy. The problem is that there's nothing in scripture or logic which says God needs to show mercy. He doesn't have to do that at all.

                                Even worse is that when you argue God must do X, Y or Z - you're arguing that God is subservient to something outside of Himself; a standard that God has no other option but to meet.

                                That is not how the bible describes Him...

                                Comment

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