Originally posted by Christianbookworm
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Apologetics 301 Guidelines
If you think this is the area where you tell everyone you are sorry for eating their lunch out of the fridge, it probably isn't the place for you
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
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I - an atheist - am morally better than the Christian God
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Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.
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Originally posted by mossrose View PostThere's no point in even responding to these guys. They aren't genuinely interested in anything any of us have to say about God.If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!
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Originally posted by Christianbookworm View PostI know. It's just in case anyone reading the thread cares to know the answer. They have as much sense about the treasure of Christ and a dog or pig does about pearls or precious treasure. A dog or pig would only care if it were something they could eat or play with. Actually, a dog might understand that Jesus is good better than these fools.
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostNo. And the verse about the Thief isn't even the main reason for that idea in the first place. It is the parable of Lazarus the beggar.
Originally posted by Sparko View PostI think you just misunderstood a phrase of speech there. I meant that we are very close to certainty. Of course, we can never be absolutely certain, but we can be very sure of what the originals must have said, based on the variants.
Originally posted by Sparko View PostI noticed you skipped over my question about what are YOUR credentials."It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
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Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View PostI would hardly imagine that the ancient Egyptians had any concept that the ethical behaviours expected within their society were socialist or that various cenobites consider their mode of living to have socialist leanings.
From what you have written you appear to regard these works as reliable source documents for the events they purport to recount.
In Josephus' works he depicts a couple of dozen different reform and revolutionary groups with a variety of agendas over this period, so it was clearly an active time. A couple of the groups he mentions were apparently pacifist. In that general context, the gospels' presentation of Jesus as described above seems plausible so I don't see much reason to question the fundamentals of it.
A young boy growing up in Nazareth would surely have heard of these events and of those who suffered and/or took part in them.
But this doesn't equate to Jesus being violent himself. He could equally have drawn the lesson from this that military resistance against the Romans was doomed to fail. Some of his words in the gospels imply he sees his countrymen on a path toward a serious military uprising against the Romans and he doesn't see it working out well for them. Obviously that's a good candidate for words-put-into-Jesus's-mouth-after-the-fact if any are, but it's also a plausible view for a thoughtful person in Jesus's time to have had.
Basically, given the gospels paint a plausible general picture of a person leading a movement to help the poor, and given Josephus tells us a huge variety of movements and reformers were thriving at the time, I think we can take the general gospel outlines of Jesus as plausible, and not reject them in favour of assuming without much evidence that Jesus must have been the average of all anti-Roman reformists and revolutionaries we know about from that era."I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
"[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein
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Originally posted by mossrose View PostThere's no point in even responding to these guys. They aren't genuinely interested in anything any of us have to say about God.Last edited by Tassman; 08-21-2020, 12:32 AM.“He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.
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Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View PostYou clearly do not understand that I used that verse merely as an exemplar. Once punctuation is inserted at a particular point it affects the meaning of the text in the translation.
That is an assumption.
My credentials are adequate for my purposes.
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Originally posted by Sparko View Postno, that is what Textual Criticism does. - that's it's goal. And the more material there is to work with, the more accurate the results.
Originally posted by Sparko View PostAs I thought, You have no more credentials than my "hillbilly degree""It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
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Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View PostYou made an assumption with this remark "I meant that we are very close to certainty. Of course, we can never be absolutely certain, but we can be very sure of what the originals must have said, based on the variants." Without any originals we can never be "absolutely certain".
You are welcome to believe that if it gives you comfort.
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostThat is what biblical scholars say.
Schaff was an eminent scholar but he too was long dead [1819-1893] before modern archaeology was developed. Recent important archaeological discoveries, with major philological research undertaken from some of those, have all been made since his death.
Originally posted by Sparko View PostGee thanks for your permission."It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
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Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View PostThat is what two biblical scholars wrote, both of whom are now dead, one for nearly ninety years. Robertson had no knowledge of the discoveries at Qumran and very little for Ras Shamra, those latter texts were discovered barely six years before his death. It should also be noted that both men were on the evangelical wing of Christianity and therefore had a degree of bias.
I am sorry you don't accept the expert opinion of dead scholars. That must put a real crimp in your studies.
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostQumran has nothing to do with the NT texts. And a scroll of Isaiah found there was also very close to the masoretic text with only a few significant variants, and some modern bibles have even used that scroll to update their translations.
I am sorry you don't accept the expert opinion of dead scholars. That must put a real crimp in your studies.
The point I am making [and one that seems to have completely by-passed you] is that without those original MSS we can never be absolutely certain if what they contained corresponds exactly in every respect with those much later copies."It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
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Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View PostIf you had bothered to recall my previous replies to you, you would realise that I have already acknowledged that the copies may indeed not differ widely from the original MSS.
The point I am making [and one that seems to have completely by-passed you] is that without those original MSS we can never be absolutely certain if what they contained corresponds exactly in every respect with those much later copies.
Originally posted by Sparko View PostI think you just misunderstood a phrase of speech there. I meant that we are very close to certainty. Of course, we can never be absolutely certain, but we can be very sure of what the originals must have said, based on the variants.
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostI said that earlier:
Of course, we can never be absolutely certain, but we can be very sure of what the originals must have said, based on the variants."It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
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