Anyone from any group can become self righteous. If a "Christian" is behaving more like the Pharisees(thinking they are inherently worth more than "those people", being ableist jerks that victim blame people with disabilities, act religious just to get praise from other people, lip service, etc.) feel free to call them out. Likewise call out anyone of your own ingroup for acting like that. No noe should act like that.
Announcement
Collapse
Apologetics 301 Guidelines
If you think this is the area where you tell everyone you are sorry for eating their lunch out of the fridge, it probably isn't the place for you
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less
I - an atheist - have an objective standard for Good
Collapse
X
-
Originally posted by Whateverman View PostOriginally posted by SparkoYou don't understand what objective morality means. It isn't rules that people agree on. Your OP is not an objective standard of "good:, it is entirely arbitrary based on what rules you decided to use: ""Good" is that which reduces the unnecessary suffering of conscious creatures. The unnecessary suffering of conscious creatures is therefore "Evil".
That's just you deciding what rule you want to use.
Originally posted by SparkoObjective morality means something is "good" or "evil" even if nobody in the world even believes it. Torturing babies for fun, is objectively evil. Even if everyone in the world suddenly started thinking it was good. Even if someone wrote it into law that you should torture your babies regularly for fun.
So you coming up with some "rule" saying what evil and good is, is just another example of subjective morality, not OBJECTIVE morality.
Objective morality means something is not dependent on what people think, but it is just innately part of reality.
I can't tell if you understand how wrong you are and are trying to deflect with nonsense, or if you are really that ignorant.
Do you understand what objective morality means now? If so, please explain it back to me so I can see if you understand or not.
Comment
-
Originally posted by Whateverman View Post"Good" is that which reduces the unnecessary suffering of conscious creatures. The unnecessary suffering of conscious creatures is therefore "Evil".
Suffering can be measured by MRI and other diagnostic technologies
Necessity should be obvious. Someone who takes a nasty tasting medicine has suffered a bit, but they had to take the medicine in order to get better. Someone who is robbed suffers unnecessarily, because the thief could have gotten the money via some other slower method.
This standard is objective in that anyone with access to the person and the aforementioned technology can look to see whether the person's suffering has lessened, and therefore, whether Good exists. The observer doesn't need to accept the standard as their own. All they need is to understand this standard, and to recognize when it's been met.
Thinking it through, I believe the problem I'm having with your idea is the problem of understanding exactly what is meant by "objective" here. If objective means existing of itself then the problem with the above is that nothing in that scenario exists of itself other than the moral agent, i.e. the cause of unnecessary suffering, but the moral agent, or cause of unnecessary suffering, is not himself or herself objectively good or evil.Last edited by JimL; 07-28-2020, 04:17 PM.
Comment
-
Originally posted by Christianbookworm View PostGod by definition is the maximally great being. Now creating is a good thing, so a maximally evil being can't actually make anything. Just steal, kill, and destroy. So, God has to be morally perfect and the standard of Good. So, no annoying little primate can actually be better than him. Silly mammals!
Comment
-
Originally posted by Whateverman View PostAs I wrote, suffering can be measured via MRI. It can literally be used to diagnostically measure things like pain, anger, fear and sadness.
Comment
-
Originally posted by Whateverman View Post
Your text I colored in red is either wrong, or Christians have the same problem.
I take credit for my high moral standards, but they're subject to change.
If a thing can't be seen directly or indirectly, and if its existence is assumed even when there's credible evidence to the contrary - that existence is not objective. If God's morality is written on my heart in such a way that it's obscured by a seared conscience - the existence of God's morality is not objective.
Can you agree that every person has a conscience which has to do only with what is morally right and wrong?
That everyone knows without being taught that it is wrong to lie, kill steal cheat etc? We are all born knowing innately what is right and what is wrong.
There are times when my conscience says it's a moral Good to do most of the things you said my conscience should be telling me are wrong. It was a moral Good to lie in order to hide Jews from the Nazis, for example.
Comment
-
-
Originally posted by JimL View PostDoesn't really matter if it can be measured or not, we no suffering when we see and experience it. Wm's argument is simply that what we call evil is that which causes unnecessary suffering.
and it's "we know suffering" not "we no suffering"
And as already pointed out, his standard of "unnecessary suffering = evil" is just another subjective standard.
Comment
-
Originally posted by Sparko View PostUh yeah it would since he is using that as a central point of his "how to know it is objective"
and it's "we know suffering" not "we no suffering"
And as already pointed out, his standard of "unnecessary suffering = evil" is just another subjective standard.
I know, I just contradicted my previous post a bit and am back to agreeing with Wm's concept of unnecesary suffering being objectively evil. And now I'm getting dizzy so I leave it to you to point out my illogic.Last edited by JimL; 07-29-2020, 03:49 PM.
Comment
-
No it can't. An MRI can't measure pain. It can only show physical damage. It can't show active areas of the brain, or nerve impulses or what a person is feeling.
You could have a broken leg that shows up on an MRI but that doesn't mean you are suffering. You might not feel anything at all at the moment. And even if you did, it would not mean you were "suffering"
Comment
-
Originally posted by Sparko View PostNo it can't. An MRI can't measure pain. It can only show physical damage. It can't show active areas of the brain, or nerve impulses or what a person is feeling.
You could have a broken leg that shows up on an MRI but that doesn't mean you are suffering. You might not feel anything at all at the moment. And even if you did, it would not mean you were "suffering"
Comment
Related Threads
Collapse
Topics | Statistics | Last Post | ||
---|---|---|---|---|
Started by whag, 04-22-2024, 06:28 PM
|
17 responses
79 views
0 likes
|
Last Post
by Sparko
Yesterday, 01:46 PM
|
||
Started by Hypatia_Alexandria, 04-17-2024, 08:31 AM
|
64 responses
296 views
0 likes
|
Last Post
by rogue06
Today, 08:07 AM
|
||
Started by Neptune7, 04-15-2024, 06:54 AM
|
25 responses
158 views
0 likes
|
Last Post
by Cerebrum123
04-17-2024, 08:31 AM
|
||
Started by whag, 04-09-2024, 01:04 PM
|
107 responses
581 views
0 likes
|
Last Post
by tabibito
Today, 09:55 AM
|
||
Started by whag, 04-07-2024, 10:17 AM
|
39 responses
251 views
0 likes
|
Last Post
by tabibito
04-12-2024, 02:58 PM
|
Comment