Originally posted by Whateverman
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Apologetics 301 Guidelines
If you think this is the area where you tell everyone you are sorry for eating their lunch out of the fridge, it probably isn't the place for you
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
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I - an atheist - have an objective standard for Good
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Originally posted by JimL View PostIf, according to Wm's hypothesis unnecessary suffering defines the objective standard of immorality, then the severity of the pain is irrelevant. If the cause of the pain is intentional, then the resulting unnecessary suffering would be the objective immorality brought about by the causer/agent of that unnecessary suffering.
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Originally posted by Whateverman View PostTough.
By that logic, so is interpretation of scripture, as well as the average Christian's conscience.
There's goes Christian objective morality...
Objective morality is the idea that there are things that are objectively wrong even if nobody believed it. Like the world is objectively round. Even when nobody believed it was, it was still round.
So something like "torturing people for fun" is objectively immoral even if every person on earth, Christians included thought otherwise.
The bible just purports to tell us what this standard is, directly from God, the guy who actually made this universe. You can either believe it or not.
On the other hand, your "objective morality" is just an arbitrary rule that you just made up. That by definition is subjective morality. It's no better than if you said you had a better idea for the objective shape of the earth and said it was a cube.
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostBut that's just another subjective morality, as can be seen by you trying to redifine it to your own interpretation. Thanks for helping to show that Whateverman's idea is just another subjective morality.
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostIt's not christian objective morality. It is just objective morality.
Objective morality is the idea that there are things that are objectively wrong even if nobody believed it. Like the world is objectively round. Even when nobody believed it was, it was still round.
So something like "torturing people for fun" is objectively immoral even if every person on earth, Christians included thought otherwise.
The bible just purports to tell us what this standard is, directly from God, the guy who actually made this universe. You can either believe it or not.
On the other hand, your "objective morality" is just an arbitrary rule that you just made up. That by definition is subjective morality. It's no better than if you said you had a better idea for the objective shape of the earth and said it was a cube.
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostSo something like "torturing people for fun" is objectively immoral even if every person on earth, Christians included thought otherwise.
The bible just purports to tell us what this standard is, directly from God, the guy who actually made this universe. You can either believe it or not.
- the Bible provides no moral commands on the subject of torture
- the Bible implies eternal torture is something God is going to do to sinners
- the most (in)famous recent international example of a torture program was that run by the Bush administration - a very self-proclaimed "Christian" administration party in a very "Christian" country
So your own go-to example of your view about objective morality, is one that your own holy book and religion appears to fail on.
The bible just purports to tell us what this standard is, directly from God, the guy who actually made this universe.
e.g.
Leviticus Chapters 19-20
I am the Lord. You shall keep my statutes:
You shall not let your animals breed with a different kind;
you shall not sow your field with two kinds of seed;
nor shall you put on a garment made of two different materials.
If a man has sexual relations with a woman who is a slave, designated for another man but not ransomed or given her freedom, an inquiry shall be held...
You shall not round off the hair on your temples or mar the edges of your beard...
When an alien resides with you in your land, you shall not oppress the alien. The alien who resides with you shall be to you as the citizen among you...
You shall keep all my statutes and all my ordinances, and observe them: I am the Lord...
I am the Lord your God. Keep my statutes, and observe them; I am the Lord
All who curse father or mother shall be put to death...
If a man lies with a woman having her sickness and uncovers her nakedness, he has laid bare her flow and she has laid bare her flow of blood; both of them shall be cut off from their people.
Clearly key insights into objective morality from the creator of the universe...
Obviously the God of the Bible is clearly so knowledgeable on morality and the best direct guide about it. Only, not even those who purport to be his followers take any of those supposedly-straight-from-God's-mouth moral commandments seriously.
Instead, we find them spending their time focusing on issues like abortion, which isn't condemned in the Bible. And giving examples of torture as objectively immoral, which again isn't condemned in the Bible.
So, actually, it seems their morality has almost nothing to do with the bible. Instead they just misuse false claims that their views come from the bible to trick themselves into wrongly believing their own personal moral views are objective morality from God."I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
"[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostSo something like "torturing people for fun" is objectively immoral even if every person on earth, Christians included thought otherwise.
The bible just purports to tell us what this standard is, directly from God, the guy who actually made this universe. You can either believe it or not.
- the Bible provides no moral commands on the subject of torture
- the Bible implies eternal torture is something God is going to do to sinners
- the most (in)famous recent international example of a torture program was that run by the Bush administration - a very self-proclaimed "Christian" administration party in a very "Christian" country
So your own go-to example of your view about objective morality, is one that your own holy book and religion appears to fail on.
The bible just purports to tell us what this standard is, directly from God, the guy who actually made this universe.
e.g.
Leviticus Chapters 19-20
I am the Lord. You shall keep my statutes:
You shall not let your animals breed with a different kind;
you shall not sow your field with two kinds of seed;
nor shall you put on a garment made of two different materials.
If a man has sexual relations with a woman who is a slave, designated for another man but not ransomed or given her freedom, an inquiry shall be held...
You shall not round off the hair on your temples or mar the edges of your beard...
When an alien resides with you in your land, you shall not oppress the alien. The alien who resides with you shall be to you as the citizen among you...
You shall keep all my statutes and all my ordinances, and observe them: I am the Lord...
I am the Lord your God. Keep my statutes, and observe them; I am the Lord
All who curse father or mother shall be put to death...
If a man lies with a woman having her sickness and uncovers her nakedness, he has laid bare her flow and she has laid bare her flow of blood; both of them shall be cut off from their people.
Clearly key insights into objective morality from the creator of the universe...
Obviously the God of the Bible is clearly so knowledgeable on morality and the best direct guide about it. Only, not even those who purport to be his followers take any of those supposedly-straight-from-God's-mouth moral commandments seriously.
Instead, we find them spending their time focusing on issues like abortion, which isn't condemned in the Bible. And giving examples of torture as objectively immoral, which again isn't condemned in the Bible.
So, actually, it seems their morality has almost nothing to do with the bible. Instead they just misuse false claims that their views come from the bible to trick themselves into wrongly believing their own personal moral views are objective morality from God."I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
"[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein
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Originally posted by Starlight View PostSo, actually, it seems their morality has almost nothing to do with the bible. Instead they just misuse false claims that their views come from the bible to trick themselves into wrongly believing their own personal moral views are objective morality from God.
Blessings,
Lee"What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)
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Originally posted by Whateverman View Post"Good" is that which reduces the unnecessary suffering of conscious creatures. The unnecessary suffering of conscious creatures is therefore "Evil".
Suffering can be measured by MRI and other diagnostic technologies
Necessity should be obvious. Someone who takes a nasty tasting medicine has suffered a bit, but they had to take the medicine in order to get better. Someone who is robbed suffers unnecessarily, because the thief could have gotten the money via some other slower method.
This standard is objective in that anyone with access to the person and the aforementioned technology can look to see whether the person's suffering has lessened, and therefore, whether Good exists. The observer doesn't need to accept the standard as their own. All they need is to understand this standard, and to recognize when it's been met.
If your point is simply that Christians don't have an objective standard either, then I think there is something to be said for a more direct approach.
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Originally posted by lee_merrill View PostAs far as torture is concerned, we have "love your neighbor as yourself" (Lev. 19:18), which would forbid that.
As far as eternal punishment is concerned, people wonder why God doesn't punish every sin completely and immediately. But that is the definition of hell, and the torment is the punishment for continuing in sin.
And as far as abortion is concerned, "You shall not kill" (Ex. 20:13) would forbid this.Last edited by Starlight; 08-09-2020, 05:40 PM."I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
"[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostSneering mockery does nothing to solve the moral problem for atheists.
If atheism is true, then any atheist who expects or demands that others live according to whatever objective standard of morality the atheist has defined is rejecting the logical implications of his own world view.
Why would you do that? Aren't you comfortable with where atheism ultimately leads?
If it's really the worldview you believe, then why not gladly embrace it's implications and live and let live?
Eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow you die.
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Originally posted by Stoic View PostIf what makes it objective is simply the fact that it is written down, then there can be as many objective standards as there are people willing to write them down. (More, even, since one person could write down more than one standard.)
Originally posted by Stoic View PostSo which standard should we choose
Originally posted by Stoic View PostIf there isn't some objective way to choose between different standards, then it doesn't really make sense to call the result "objective".
Is there an objective way to choose whether to drive the posted speed limit or to drive the speed limits state laws have decided is how fast you should drive when it's not posted? No - but that doesn't change the fact that both the posted speed limit and the state's default speed limit are both objective laws.
Originally posted by Stoic View PostIf your point is simply that Christians don't have an objective standard either, then I think there is something to be said for a more direct approach.
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Originally posted by Starlight View PostA rather awful choice of an example given that:
- the Bible provides no moral commands on the subject of torture
- the Bible implies eternal torture is something God is going to do to sinners
- the most (in)famous recent international example of a torture program was that run by the Bush administration - a very self-proclaimed "Christian" administration party in a very "Christian" country
So your own go-to example of your view about objective morality, is one that your own holy book and religion appears to fail on.
This also seems a rather poor choice of words given that the parts of the bible that purport to portray direct moral commandments from God are nearly all in the Old Testament, where there are as many completely silly ones that today virtually no Christians follow or pay attention to as there are sensible ones.
e.g.
Leviticus Chapters 19-20
I am the Lord. You shall keep my statutes:
You shall not let your animals breed with a different kind;
you shall not sow your field with two kinds of seed;
nor shall you put on a garment made of two different materials.
If a man has sexual relations with a woman who is a slave, designated for another man but not ransomed or given her freedom, an inquiry shall be held...
You shall not round off the hair on your temples or mar the edges of your beard...
When an alien resides with you in your land, you shall not oppress the alien. The alien who resides with you shall be to you as the citizen among you...
You shall keep all my statutes and all my ordinances, and observe them: I am the Lord...
I am the Lord your God. Keep my statutes, and observe them; I am the Lord
All who curse father or mother shall be put to death...
If a man lies with a woman having her sickness and uncovers her nakedness, he has laid bare her flow and she has laid bare her flow of blood; both of them shall be cut off from their people.
Clearly key insights into objective morality from the creator of the universe...
Obviously the God of the Bible is clearly so knowledgeable on morality and the best direct guide about it. Only, not even those who purport to be his followers take any of those supposedly-straight-from-God's-mouth moral commandments seriously.
Instead, we find them spending their time focusing on issues like abortion, which isn't condemned in the Bible. And giving examples of torture as objectively immoral, which again isn't condemned in the Bible.
So, actually, it seems their morality has almost nothing to do with the bible. Instead they just misuse false claims that their views come from the bible to trick themselves into wrongly believing their own personal moral views are objective morality from God.
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Originally posted by Stoic View PostIt's not a lie if there is an honest disagreement over the meaning of "objective".
Sure, if two people disagree about what "objective" means, then any arguments based on that misunderstanding aren't dishonest. Or lies. The problem is that - with many Christian apologists - the word in the term "objective morality" is redefined to mean "according to God's absolute authority". This definition cannot be found in any dictionary, so any accusation that atheists lack objective morality is a dishonest attempt to win a debate via equivocation.
If the particular post I based this thread upon had been the only instance of this kind of equivocation from the same person, I probably wouldn't have used the word "lie". Unfortunately, this person routinely posts the same nonsense, no matter how often he is corrected on it. The dishonesty is willful.
In this case, the claim that atheists don't have an objective standard for "Good" is an intentional lie by a hateful apologist.
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