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I - an atheist - have an objective standard for Good

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  • #91
    Originally posted by Whateverman View Post
    There isn't a disagreement, though. All there is - is a willful redefinition of the word to suit cheap internet rhetoric.

    Sure, if two people disagree about what "objective" means, then any arguments based on that misunderstanding aren't dishonest. Or lies. The problem is that - with many Christian apologists - the word in the term "objective morality" is redefined to mean "according to God's absolute authority". This definition cannot be found in any dictionary, so any accusation that atheists lack objective morality is a dishonest attempt to win a debate via equivocation.

    If the particular post I based this thread upon had been the only instance of this kind of equivocation from the same person, I probably wouldn't have used the word "lie". Unfortunately, this person routinely posts the same nonsense, no matter how often he is corrected on it. The dishonesty is willful.

    In this case, the claim that atheists don't have an objective standard for "Good" is an intentional lie by a hateful apologist.
    That's a good point, you can't win an argument with a christian concerning objective moral truisms because for the christian the definition of objective moral truths are those things that pertain only to god, or as seer would put it, they are objective truisms simply "becuase god says so". But to argue that good or evil are only good or evil because "god says so" makes no distinction between good and evil itself. It doesn't explain what is meant by good, or what is meant by evil. If you ask them to define good, or what they mean by their assertion that god is good, they can't explain it to you.

    On the other hand, that morals, that what is good and what is evil, are relative to nature, relative to the world to which they speak, can be explained by reason. Where the theist fails with his "just because" answer, the athiest can give a rational, a reasoned explanation, as to why a thing, why a behavior, is morally good or morally evil.

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    • #92
      Originally posted by JimL View Post
      That's a good point, you can't win an argument with a christian concerning objective moral truisms because for the christian the definition of objective moral truths are those things that pertain only to god, or as seer would put it, they are objective truisms simply "becuase god says so". But to argue that good or evil are only good or evil because "god says so" makes no distinction between good and evil itself. It doesn't explain what is meant by good, or what is meant by evil. If you ask them to define good, or what they mean by their assertion that god is good, they can't explain it to you.

      On the other hand, that morals, that what is good and what is evil, are relative to nature, relative to the world to which they speak, can be explained by reason. Where the theist fails with his "just because" answer, the athiest can give a rational, a reasoned explanation, as to why a thing, why a behavior, is morally good or morally evil.
      Spot-on. Yes.

      Another failure lies with the fact that divine command theory is effective only when we have a specific divine command for some moral/ethical situation. Even though the bible contains a number of value judgments, God never gives any command for abortion, for example. To the contrary, "God" seems to imply that forcing a woman to lost her baby is punishable only by a fine.

      ... which of course implies that Christians themselves don't necessarily subscribe to the kind of divine command theory necessary to lecture atheists about not having objective standards for good and evil.

      aka. it's nothing more than cheap, hateful rhetoric.

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      • #93
        Originally posted by JimL View Post
        How is the fact that unnecesary suffering exists, regardless of the degree, a subjective morality?
        It is a subjective criteria. suffering itself is not moral or immoral. And also "unnecesary" is subjective.

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        • #94
          Originally posted by Sparko View Post
          Originally posted by JimL View Post
          How is the fact that unnecesary suffering exists, regardless of the degree, a subjective morality?
          It is a subjective criteria.
          Then so everything written in the bible!

          How do we objectively choose between the Quran, the bible, and the Bhagavad Gita? Subjectively, according to you.

          Oops.

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          • #95
            Originally posted by Sparko View Post
            It is a subjective criteria.
            The degree to which one is suffering is a subjective judgement, but that suffering exist is not.
            suffering itself is not moral or immoral.
            Agreed.

            And also "unnecesary" is subjective.
            I disagree, the degree to which one suffers is subjective but whether or not the suffering exists or was necessary is not subjective. If I harm someone physically or psychologically then the degree to which they suffer would be subjective, but that suffering itself is a reality, and whether it is unnecessary suffering or not, are objective facts. What you are arguing it seems to me, is that there is no such thing as unnecessary suffering.

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            • #96
              Originally posted by Whateverman View Post
              Then so everything written in the bible!

              How do we objectively choose between the Quran, the bible, and the Bhagavad Gita? Subjectively, according to you.

              Oops.
              If Christianity is right, you will find out what "objective morality" is when you stand before God. Until then, feel free to believe whatever you want. But your idea is not objective morality. It is just some idiotic criteria you made up, and even admitted you made up. Which is a textbook example of "subjective morality"

              Not to mention committing the sin of pride by claiming to be better than God. Good luck with that one. That's pretty much what caused Satan to be cast out.

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              • #97
                Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                If Christianity is right, you will find out what "objective morality" is when you stand before God. Until then, feel free to believe whatever you want. But your idea is not objective morality. It is just some idiotic criteria you made up, and even admitted you made up. Which is a textbook example of "subjective morality"

                Not to mention committing the sin of pride by claiming to be better than God. Good luck with that one. That's pretty much what caused Satan to be cast out.
                And of course you believe it just for a god to judge people for their subjective beliefs.

                Comment


                • #98
                  Originally posted by JimL View Post
                  And of course you believe it just for a god to judge people for their subjective beliefs.
                  No. He judges them on their actions.

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                    If Christianity is right, you will find out what "objective morality" is when you stand before God.
                    Nope. If Christianity is right, there's still no objective morality of the kind being described by Christians, and this is a fact even if I do eventually wind up suffering from my rejection of your god.

                    Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                    Until then, feel free to believe whatever you want.
                    Blah blah blah, you're running away from the conversation because your POV is indefensible, so you try to feel better about yourself by declaring the argument you're impotent against "opinion".

                    I don't need your permission or endorsement to "believe whatever" I want to; I already do that. The fact is that I and a number of other people here have demonstrated that Christian "objective" standards are no better or more authoritative than the standards offered by atheists - or anyone else, for that matter.

                    You can believe whatever you want, but it's pretty obvious that in this case, you're believing it because you want to.

                    Not because you're justified in doing so.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Whateverman View Post
                      Nope. If Christianity is right, there's still no objective morality of the kind being described by Christians, and this is a fact even if I do eventually wind up suffering from my rejection of your god.


                      Blah blah blah, you're running away from the conversation because your POV is indefensible, so you try to feel better about yourself by declaring the argument you're impotent against "opinion".

                      I don't need your permission or endorsement to "believe whatever" I want to; I already do that. The fact is that I and a number of other people here have demonstrated that Christian "objective" standards are no better or more authoritative than the standards offered by atheists - or anyone else, for that matter.

                      You can believe whatever you want, but it's pretty obvious that in this case, you're believing it because you want to.

                      Not because you're justified in doing so.
                      I would like to be present when you face God and explain to him how you are better than him.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                        No. He judges them on their actions.
                        Oh really. No! Ultimately he judges them on their subjective belief as to whether or not they believe that there is a god and that he is that god. If they get that wrong, they're out.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                          Oh really. No! Ultimately he judges them on their subjective belief as to whether or not they believe that there is a god and that he is that god. If they get that wrong, they're out.
                          You should actually read the bible at least once in your life, JimL. At least then you would be able to actually debate Christians instead of just making up nonsense objections.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                            You should actually read the bible at least once in your life, JimL. At least then you would be able to actually debate Christians instead of just making up nonsense objections.
                            It isn't a debate unless you actually answer to the questions, or assertions, put to you rather than simple personal attacks. If you don't subjectively believe in your god, then you're out, correct?

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                              It isn't a debate unless you actually answer to the questions, or assertions, put to you rather than simple personal attacks. If you don't subjectively believe in your god, then you're out, correct?
                              When you make ignorant assumptions and statements, I have no need to answer your questions. Do your homework first and stop burning straw men.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                                When you make ignorant assumptions and statements, I have no need to answer your questions. Do your homework first and stop burning straw men.
                                If one doesn't believe in god, i.e that Jesus is god, then they are out of the game regardless. Correct or not?

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