Originally posted by JimL
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Forum Rules: Here
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostChristianity is. It is based on the resurrection of Jesus and the evidence provided of that fact to the witnesses. The bible is their testimony. Like reading the transcript of a trial. If Jesus didn't rise from the dead, then our faith is in vain. Just prove that Jesus didn't exist or resurrect and you have destroyed Christianity.
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostNo, biblical faith is just trust of the evidence and God.
Originally posted by Sparko View PostIf you can show me that Jesus didn't exist or that he didn't rise from the dead, I would stop being a Christian. I believe because I trust the evidence presented in the bible and in my own life. That is faith.
Originally posted by Sparko View PostBecause the only thing you can claim it is wrong about are things that CAN be explained, usually it takes the form of someone trying to claim the bible made some scientific claim and then showing it isn't true, but the bible isn't a science book.
Originally posted by Sparko View PostIt merely speaks using methods that people at the time could comprehend. When it talks about the sun standing still for example, it is just speaking from the point of view of the people watching the event.
Originally posted by Sparko View PostWhen we get into the new testament and the gospels and acts, the events there have never been shown to be wrong.
Originally posted by Sparko View PostThere have been several attempts over the years but they have each failed when new archeological evidence has been found. Such as Pilate as I mentioned earlier. The authors of the gospels have proven to be honest and accurate and so I can trust their testimony as eye witnesses to the events they record. This is no different than a jury trusting witnesses in a trial, some who only appear as written testimony in many cases. It IS evidence.
Originally posted by Sparko View Postwrong. see above.
Originally posted by Sparko View PostWe have no evidence there other than Joseph Smith's word and he was a known charlatan and con man.
Originally posted by Sparko View PostHe never claimed any public evidence or visions. It was all happening to him in secret. The visit, the book which conveniently disappeared. But, the evidence AGAINST Smith and mormonism is extensive and too much to to into in a single post. You can visit our mormonism forum and read through the many threads on the topic (note they are theist only areas so don't post there). And NO archaeological evidence supports the claims of the LDS church.
And NO archeological evidence supports the religious claims of Christianity, either.
Originally posted by Sparko View PostThe difference is that Christianity DID claim to have evidence and witnesses and it occurred during a time of great persecution to anyone who did try to start a new religion. The Jews and the Romans actively tried to stamp them out. There was no benefit to start a new religion. There was no prestige, or wealth to be gained. The leaders and followers both were hunted down and stoned or killed. Why not just fade into the woodwork and go back to being good Jews and pretend it never happened? How did they get new followers if those people would have known the truth that Jesus was not resurrected? It would have fizzled at the start.
Originally posted by Sparko View PostThe difference is that those first Christian leaders and followers would have KNOWN they were charlatans. Why would they die for something they knew was a lie?America - too good to let the conservatives drag it back to 1950.
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostYou don't disbelieve because of a lack of evidence. You disbelieve because you ignore the evidence. Because you want to be the lord of your own life and not answer to a God. The ironic thing is that this desire is exactly what will cause you to have to answer to God one day.America - too good to let the conservatives drag it back to 1950.
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostJim if I tell you that you need to take shelter because a hurricane is coming and you don't believe, you are going to have to face that hurricane all by yourself. Those who did listen to me and take shelter will be safe. Are you going to say it is ridiculous to say that your safety depends on whether you believe or not? If you never heard from me and didn't know about the hurricane or safety, is it unfair that you had to face the hurricane instead of knowing about the shelter? Is that ridiculous? What if you decided to build a shack in a hurricane prone land, and despite people warning you, you just said they were crazy. Is it ridiculous that you will be swept away because of your own dumb actions?
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Originally posted by Electric Skeptic View PostNo, that is just belief. Faith is belief despite a lack of evidence.
So it is wrong, but that's okay because it's not a science book.
How could people view the sun standing still without it standing still - or do you mean that the world actually stopped rotating?)
And they've never been shown to be right, either - just like myths in any number of other religious texts. "Never shown to be false" is not a good reason for belief.
Just like the Mormons have evidence of Joseph Smith's meeting the angel. Vague, contradictory claims from anonymous people some 2,000 years ago are incredibly flimsy evidence; it is not remotely like witnesses in a trial.
Nope, correct. See above.
And the evidence AGAINST Christianity is extensive and too much to to into in a single post. Don't pretend that Christianity is somehow above/ beyond criticism.
And NO archeological evidence supports the religious claims of Christianity, either.
There is no difference. Christianity CLAIMS evidence and witnesses. Just like Smith's CLAIMS, they are not sufficient to warrant belief.
No, they woudln't have known. Christianity is no different to other religions in this way; it requires faith, not reasoned belief.
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Originally posted by JimL View PostThe Muslims tell you that you had better believe in Allah, so why don't you believe? Is it your fault that you are not omniscient and sometimes are in error in what it is that you believe? Should you be punished for honestly getting it wrong? The problem with your belief, amongst other thinds, is that the idea you have of god is that he is unjust and petty.
And if I am wrong about it, Islam teaches that the people of the book (Christians and Jews) who die without being Muslim will basically face the same judgment the muslims do. Allah will weigh their good and bad deeds on a scale. If there is more good than bad, then they go to heaven.
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Originally posted by Electric Skeptic View PostAn arrogant, conceited and most of all wrong claim. It's about as accurate as Muslim telling you that you don't believe in Allah and Muhammed because you ignore the evidence. Because you want to be the lord of your own life and not answer to a Allah. The ironic thing is that this desire is exactly what will cause you to have to answer to Allah one day.
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostBecause I have studied Islam and read the Koran and found it to be phony. Have you?
And if I am wrong about it,
Islam teaches that the people of the book (Christians and Jews) who die without being Muslim will basically face the same judgment the muslims do. Allah will weigh their good and bad deeds on a scale. If there is more good than bad, then they go to heaven.
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Originally posted by Sparko View Post"hell" no? Ironic.
CS Lewis said that the reason there are people in hell is because the door is locked from the inside.
With bacon I hope.
I think that describes the difference between believers and non-believers pretty well. A lot of people put themselves on the throne and are happy to believe in a God that fits their designs. When I became a Christian, I had to decide that I would follow the God of the bible, even when I didn't agree with him or his 'laws' - and put my own desires and wishes in second place.
Most of the rest is hopelessly anachronistic. We don't do kings or thrones anymore, well, most of us don't, anyway, and the rest see the position as mostly ceremonial. Our social contracts are instead based, ideally, on compromises between equals. Right and wrong are based on principles of harm. Makes it a lot easier to argue for agreement that way.
The argument that something's right or wrong based on the Bible needlessly excludes the vast majority of humanity, not to mention a majority of Christianity itself. It's not defensible, even in principle. What's objectively right, or objectively wrong, can't depend on the authority of any book. Arguments from authority are informal fallacies.
The need to invoke that informal fallacy is an argument against your personal God, just by the way. You'd be better off sticking with the principles of Christianity that can be rationally defended, in my opinion. As an argument, the gift of faith works for Jesus. Stick with that. The gift of faith doesn't work for the Bible, though, because, well, the Bible makes mistakes, and even if it didn't, mistakes are inevitable absent an inerrant interpreter.
I don't think our understanding will become infinite, what does that even mean? You want to be like God, omniscient? That won't happen and you are right, you would not be human any longer, I don't think.
Then I have them subtract the number they've written down. Most displays give e as 2.718281828 and a difference between the stored value and the display of 4.59 EE -10. That's not right, because e is irrational, and in fact it's transcendental. But in either case, as a decimal it goes on well past the 15 digits stored in the calculator.
The calculator gives the wrong answer for the difference because nothing you can hold in your hand is infinite, so eventually, it runs out of memory to store things.
Humans are finite. Eternity isn't. Eventually, if you're finite, you'd have to start shedding experiences.
Don't confuse the infinite with the all-encompassing, though. There are an infinite number of fractions, but none of them are equal to e.
I think we will be human, maybe as perfect and smart as humans can be, but not gods. We will be immortal and live forever. But I have no idea how that works either. The bible is mostly concerned with what goes on here and how we are to behave. It doesn't go into a lot of detail about heaven or the new Earth.
A lot of call for what?
Seems an odd entry requirement to me, unless, well, ya know ... you never do get a chance to see Him.
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostWell if each truly didn't think it was a sin, then neither would be held responsible, but I think the both knew it was wrong. How can you not think owning a person is wrong?
Because the Christian is forgiven because he accepted Christ as his savior and the other did not. So while the Christian gets pardoned, the other must stand trial for his sin. Why do I need to keep repeating this?
You seem to think that decisions just happen to you and you don't actually make them. I am sorry you believe you are a robot, but that is no excuse for your sins. You do have a choice to make. And once you do make the decision to follow Christ you will need to commit to him and follow him as your Lord and live as a Christian.
If you think saying a magical prayer saves you without a commitment, then you are fooling yourself.
You don't disbelieve because of a lack of evidence. You disbelieve because you ignore the evidence.
Because you want to be the lord of your own life and not answer to a God.“He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostWhen it talks about the sun standing still for example, it is just speaking from the point of view of the people watching the event.
Originally posted by Sparko View PostWhen we get into the new testament and the gospels and acts, the events there have never been shown to be wrong.
Originally posted by Sparko View PostThere have been several attempts over the years but they have each failed when new archeological evidence has been found.
Originally posted by Sparko View PostThe authors of the gospels have proven to be honest and accurate and so I can trust their testimony as eye witnesses to the events they record.
Originally posted by Sparko View PostThe difference is that Christianity DID claim to have evidence and witnesses and it occurred during a time of great persecution to anyone who did try to start a new religion.
Originally posted by Sparko View PostThe Jews and the Romans actively tried to stamp them out.
Originally posted by Sparko View PostThere was no benefit to start a new religion.
Originally posted by Sparko View PostThe leaders and followers both were hunted down and stoned or killed.
Originally posted by Sparko View PostWhy not just fade into the woodwork and go back to being good Jews and pretend it never happened? How did they get new followers if those people would have known the truth that Jesus was not resurrected? It would have fizzled at the start.
Had Constantine not finally granted legal toleration in the early fourth century CE it is quite possible that Christianity would have remained a collection of disparate sects and it may even have disappeared altogether. It was Constantine's need to bring about cohesion and stability within the Empire that indirectly led to the ascent of Christianity. It would not have achieved its importance had it not been for Imperial support.
Originally posted by Sparko View PostThe difference is that those first Christian leaders and followers would have KNOWN they were charlatans. Why would they die for something they knew was a lie?"It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostNobody has ever shown the bible to be in error.
Originally posted by Sparko View PostArcheologists have been using the bible as a guide for centuries.
Originally posted by Sparko View PostIt is based on historical evidence and claims.
No one has left a journal entry or other record of seeing a Jew who had been crucified the previous week, doing his shopping in the market.
As to Christianity's "claims" well people can claim anything, can't they?
Originally posted by Sparko View PostChristianity would never have started without that evidence and the witnesses to the resurrection. People would have just said, "what are you talking about? we can go to Jesus' grave right now,"It ain't necessarily so
The things that you're liable
To read in the Bible
It ain't necessarily so."
Sportin' Life
Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin
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