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I - an atheist - have an objective standard for Good

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Sparko View Post
    Your standard seems really subjective after all, not objective.
    The word you're looking for is "relative". It's not subjective, because as I explained in the OP, the standard is objective. Even a Christian can follow the rules I outlined, and determine whether the standard was met or not.

    Originally posted by Sparko View Post
    So a group of people could just get together and decide that killing you is a good thing and then kill you?

    But let's go with your definitions. Is aborting a baby good or evil?
    Feel free to create your own thread in which to discuss the topics you'd rather discuss than this one.

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Esther View Post
      I would of course much rather you think about the fact that it is God and not you making the moral judgements
      I have to make moral judgments, Esther. All the time. So do you.

      I know you believe that whatever judgments we make, God's are the final word on the matter. Nevertheless, your God gave us brains by which we can identify right vs wrong, sin vs righteousness, His will vs ours. Anything that helps me make better judgments should be seen favorably by Him.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
        You really don't understand the problem, do you?
        Yeah, I really do :)

        The problem is that you don't want to address the thread topic.

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by Whateverman View Post
          I explained what that standard was, and rather than critique it, you've resorted to grade school taunts.

          I take this as your concession to the argument
          What you believe is "necessary" suffering might not be what someone else believes is "necessary." Since the necessity portion is subjective, then your objective standard unravels.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Ronson View Post
            What you believe is "necessary" suffering might not be what someone else believes is "necessary."
            As I said, a dictionary does away with this problem.

            It's an objective standard, and is not dependent on personal opinion.
            Last edited by Whateverman; 07-27-2020, 10:45 PM.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by JimL View Post
              Sometimes, I'm thinking that living for eternity might get monotonous after a while
              I seriously believe that the Christians who like the idea of eternal life haven't thought about it enough. One of my favorite quotes:

              Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon.
              ~ Susan Ertz

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              • #37
                Originally posted by Ronson View Post
                What you believe is "necessary" suffering might not be what someone else believes is "necessary." Since the necessity portion is subjective, then your objective standard unravels.
                I think the point is that "necessary suffering" is simply suffering that isn't preventable. Unnecesary suffering, or the cause thereof, because it is preventable, is how the OP defines moral evil. It doesn't really matter what people agree on, it isn't a matter of opinion. Unnecesary suffering in this scenario isn't subjective, and that I think is Wm's point, unnecessary suffering is what it is whether we agree or not.. It's no different than the Chrisian concept wherin they believe what they call evil to be objective, but they can't give you theexact details, or agree upon exactly what is and isn't evil.
                Last edited by JimL; 07-28-2020, 03:04 AM.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by Whateverman View Post
                  "Good" is that which reduces the unnecessary suffering of conscious creatures. The unnecessary suffering of conscious creatures is therefore "Evil".

                  Suffering can be measured by MRI and other diagnostic technologies

                  Necessity should be obvious. Someone who takes a nasty tasting medicine has suffered a bit, but they had to take the medicine in order to get better. Someone who is robbed suffers unnecessarily, because the thief could have gotten the money via some other slower method.

                  This standard is objective in that anyone with access to the person and the aforementioned technology can look to see whether the person's suffering has lessened, and therefore, whether Good exists. The observer doesn't need to accept the standard as their own. All they need is to understand this standard, and to recognize when it's been met.

                  Is the above an example of an objective standard for good? Perhaps.


                  But that's not really where the problem with most attempts at constructing an objective morality on an atheistic worldview lies. The problem does not lie with whether you can show that your standards for measuring what you've determined to be "good" or "evil" are objective or not. The problem is whether you can show that what you've chosen to be "good" or conversely "evil" is actually objectively "good" or "evil". You might have demonstrated an objective standard for measuring "good" and "evil", but you haven't demonstrated the existence of objective moral values.

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
                    Is the above an example of an objective standard for good? Perhaps.


                    But that's not really where the problem with most attempts at constructing an objective morality on an atheistic worldview lies. The problem does not lie with whether you can show that your standards for measuring what you've determined to be "good" or "evil" are objective or not. The problem is whether you can show that what you've chosen to be "good" or conversely "evil" is actually objectively "good" or "evil". You might have demonstrated an objective standard for measuring "good" and "evil", but you haven't demonstrated the existence of objective moral values.
                    Morality is merely how humans have behaved under the prevailing circumstances at a particular time in history. It has demonstrably evolved and varied to a degree, both for theists and atheists in ALL societies, from era to era from culture to culture over time.
                    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Whateverman View Post
                      As I said, a dictionary does away with this problem.

                      It's an objective standard, and is not dependent on personal opinion.
                      You said "necessary should be obvious" - that's not a dictionary definition. I've noticed humanists often consider things to be "obvious" when they are not. That's why we have courts to decide right and wrong.

                      Can spanking a child be necessary? Can pain in childbirth be necessary?

                      You used the example of "nasty medicine." Say there are several medicines available, some are nasty and some aren't. Some are more effective than others. It's not very obvious.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Whateverman View Post
                        I explained what that standard was, and rather than critique it, you've resorted to grade school taunts.

                        I take this as your concession to the argument
                        You don't understand what objective morality means. It isn't rules that people agree on. Your OP is not an objective standard of "good:, it is entirely arbitrary based on what rules you decided to use: ""Good" is that which reduces the unnecessary suffering of conscious creatures. The unnecessary suffering of conscious creatures is therefore "Evil".

                        That's just you deciding what rule you want to use.

                        Objective morality means something is "good" or "evil" even if nobody in the world even believes it. Torturing babies for fun, is objectively evil. Even if everyone in the world suddenly started thinking it was good. Even if someone wrote it into law that you should torture your babies regularly for fun.

                        So you coming up with some "rule" saying what evil and good is, is just another example of subjective morality, not OBJECTIVE morality.

                        Objective morality means something is not dependent on what people think, but it is just innately part of reality.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Whateverman View Post
                          I have to make moral judgments, Esther. All the time. So do you.

                          I know you believe that whatever judgments we make, God's are the final word on the matter. Nevertheless, your God gave us brains by which we can identify right vs wrong, sin vs righteousness, His will vs ours. Anything that helps me make better judgments should be seen favorably by Him.
                          Sparko gave the definition of the word objective with regards to morality.

                          The thing that I would like to get across to you is that I believe all humans have a conscience. A conscience only has to do with what is morally right or wrong. "Con" meaning with and "science" meaning knowledge.

                          Iow when we make right or wrong moral decisions we do so with knowledge.The Bible says that God writes his laws on our hearts. I see this as God speaking to every human being with regards to what is morally right and wrong. Humans are prone to sear their consciences which makes them deaf to the voice of God and disobey the objective morality placed in them.

                          The atheist will take credit for their high moral standards for example, becoming self righteous. This is their only option. Whereas it is the conscience God has place in them and God ultimately who should get the credit.

                          The 10 Commandments are the objective moral law God has placed in humans. A person does not even need to ever have read one of the 10 Commandments to know that it is wrong to lie, steal, kill, commit adultery etc. That is because God has written those commandments first received by the nation of Israel on tablets of stone, He now writes them on people's "hearts". Our consciences.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                            You don't understand what objective morality means. It isn't rules that people agree on. Your OP is not an objective standard of "good:, it is entirely arbitrary based on what rules you decided to use: ""Good" is that which reduces the unnecessary suffering of conscious creatures. The unnecessary suffering of conscious creatures is therefore "Evil".

                            That's just you deciding what rule you want to use.
                            Your God did the exact same thing.

                            Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                            Objective morality means something is "good" or "evil" even if nobody in the world even believes it. Torturing babies for fun, is objectively evil. Even if everyone in the world suddenly started thinking it was good. Even if someone wrote it into law that you should torture your babies regularly for fun.

                            So you coming up with some "rule" saying what evil and good is, is just another example of subjective morality, not OBJECTIVE morality.
                            Same with your God's morality.

                            Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                            Objective morality means something is not dependent on what people think, but it is just innately part of reality.
                            That's three times you've defined your God's morality out of objectivity.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              God by definition is the maximally great being. Now creating is a good thing, so a maximally evil being can't actually make anything. Just steal, kill, and destroy. So, God has to be morally perfect and the standard of Good. So, no annoying little primate can actually be better than him. Silly mammals!
                              If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Esther View Post
                                Sparko gave the definition of the word objective with regards to morality.

                                The thing that I would like to get across to you is that I believe all humans have a conscience. A conscience only has to do with what is morally right or wrong. "Con" meaning with and "science" meaning knowledge.

                                Iow when we make right or wrong moral decisions we do so with knowledge.The Bible says that God writes his laws on our hearts. I see this as God speaking to every human being with regards to what is morally right and wrong. Humans are prone to sear their consciences which makes them deaf to the voice of God and disobey the objective morality placed in them.

                                The atheist will take credit for their high moral standards for example, becoming self righteous. This is their only option.
                                I appreciate your politeness and willingness to deal constructively with the tread's topic. Thank you.

                                Your text I colored in red is either wrong, or Christians have the same problem. I take credit for my high moral standards, but they're subject to change. As such, another option is to test them, and deal with the results with humility.

                                Originally posted by Esther View Post
                                The 10 Commandments are the objective moral law God has placed in humans. A person does not even need to ever have read one of the 10 Commandments to know that it is wrong to lie, steal, kill, commit adultery etc. That is because God has written those commandments first received by the nation of Israel on tablets of stone, He now writes them on people's "hearts". Our consciences.
                                If a thing can't be seen directly or indirectly, and if its existence is assumed even when there's credible evidence to the contrary - that existence is not objective. If God's morality is written on my heart in such a way that it's obscured by a seared conscience - the existence of God's morality is not objective.

                                Using Sparko's definition (re. "something {that's} not dependent on what people think, but it is just innately part of reality"), the only indication I have that this morality exists comes from you (and presumably other Christians). It's coming from what you think/believe.

                                That means it can't be objective, Esther.

                                There are times when my conscience says it's a moral Good to do most of the things you said my conscience should be telling me are wrong. It was a moral Good to lie in order to hide Jews from the Nazis, for example.
                                Last edited by Whateverman; 07-28-2020, 12:02 PM.

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