Originally posted by Cow Poke
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Look! It's a bird, no it's a plane, no it's a bicycle built for two!
This forum is a debate area to discuss issues pertaining to the LDS - Mormons. This forum is generally for theists only, and is generaly not the area for debate between atheists and theists. Non-theists may not post here without first obtaining permission from the moderator of this forum. Granting of such permission is subject to Moderator discretion - and may be revoked if the Moderator feels that the poster is not keeping with the spirit of the World Religions Department.
Due to the sensitive nature of the LDS Temple Ceremonies to our LDS posters, we do not allow posting exact text of the temple rituals, articles describing older versions of the ceremony, or links that provide the same information. However discussion of generalities of the ceremony are not off limits. If in doubt, PM the area mod or an Admin
Non-theists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 forum without such restrictions.
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7up reminded me of our friend Robert Millet
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostAnd if somebody asked me, "hey, aren't you Southern Baptists a bunch of racists?", I would begin by TOTALLY admitting that there was rampant racism, and many in our denomination bought into that -- it was wrong, and we denounce it as such. I wouldn't try to pretend that it didn't happen, and I COULD honestly say that it was never a "doctrine" of our Church ... just rampant stupidity and bigotry. The TRUTH works SO well.Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by seven7up View PostWhile you are considering this, let's say that you are going to teach a class on the gospels. Would you start with Jesus violently overthrowing the money changers in the temple?
How about a Christian history class. Would you start with indulgences or the crusades?
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I find I am increasingly uncomfortable with this thread. I'm no stranger to debate forums in general or TWeb in particular -- I was one of the original members of the original TWeb back when it started as a breakaway group from another Christian debate forum. I understand the expectation that Twebbers either get a thick skin or leave. But if anyone has a problem with 7up or anyone else, why don't you tell them straight out or PM them instead of doing this "Hey, didja see how snarky 7up is getting?" stuff?
I suppose it's better than talking behind his back, but just barely. In real life, would you sit around and talk negatively about someone else in the third person while it was obvious they could hear you? That seems really rude to me.
Maybe I shouldn't get involved here, but CP and 7up, I'm wondering if you guys are speaking past each other.
Originally posted by Cow PokeOriginally posted by 7upPlease address the points that I am actually making, rather than the arguments that you wish I were making.Originally posted by 7upI was pointing out that Bill was attempting to rail against an argument that I never made in the first place.Originally posted by Cow PokeYes, which reminded me of Robert Millet teaching to "invent" a question and answer that, instead of the question that was asked.Originally posted by 7upSo, you are saying that Bill was just using Robert Millet's tactics?Originally posted by Cow PokeWow!
No, I'm saying that what YOU said, and the way you said it, reminded me of Millet's "Lying for the Lord" tactics.
And I think 7up read what CP said as "What you said reminds me of a Mormon tactic that I find intellectually dishonest", but couldn't quite parse how CP got that idea from his original statement. So he wondered if CP meant "7up's description of Bill's response made me think of a Mormon tactic..." which resembles "Bill is using a dishonest tactic that Mormons use," hence his question "Are you saying Bill was just using Millet's tactics?" Then when CP said no, that wasn't it, he reinterpreted CP's original statement as "7up is using intellectually dishonest tactics," which is a personal accusation.
Unless I happen to be right about what CP meant, you have to admit that "I'm saying that what YOU said, and the way you said it, reminded me of Millet's "Lying for the Lord" tactics." does sound like an accusation of intellectual dishonesty.
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Originally posted by Kind Debater View PostI find I am increasingly uncomfortable with this thread. I'm no stranger to debate forums in general or TWeb in particular -- I was one of the original members of the original TWeb back when it started as a breakaway group from another Christian debate forum. I understand the expectation that Twebbers either get a thick skin or leave. But if anyone has a problem with 7up or anyone else, why don't you tell them straight out or PM them instead of doing this "Hey, didja see how snarky 7up is getting?" stuff?
I suppose it's better than talking behind his back, but just barely. In real life, would you sit around and talk negatively about someone else in the third person while it was obvious they could hear you? That seems really rude to me.
Maybe I shouldn't get involved here, but CP and 7up, I'm wondering if you guys are speaking past each other.
Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think CP's train of thought was "Please address the points that I am actually making, rather than the arguments that you wish I were making." resembles "Please address the points I am making rather than the arguments you think I should be making" which is reminiscent of "Answer the question you think they should have asked." As in, the general concept of someone answering what they think someone should have said instead of what they actually said is what's in common between 7up's original statement and Millet's speech, and he wasn't saying 7up or Bill were intentionally using that tactic.
And I think 7up read what CP said as "What you said reminds me of a Mormon tactic that I find intellectually dishonest", but couldn't quite parse how CP got that idea from his original statement. So he wondered if CP meant "7up's description of Bill's response made me think of a Mormon tactic..." which resembles "Bill is using a dishonest tactic that Mormons use," hence his question "Are you saying Bill was just using Millet's tactics?" Then when CP said no, that wasn't it, he reinterpreted CP's original statement as "7up is using intellectually dishonest tactics," which is a personal accusation.
Unless I happen to be right about what CP meant, you have to admit that "I'm saying that what YOU said, and the way you said it, reminded me of Millet's "Lying for the Lord" tactics." does sound like an accusation of intellectual dishonesty.
I had totally forgotten about Robert Millet --- we used to have a thread on this. For WHATEVER reason, 7up's comment reminded me of Robert Millet's "instruction".
I think, from that, 7up went off to the races.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostI am slightly uncomfortable with this line of argumentation. It seems sorta "holier than thou" somehow.
Can you shed some light on this for me? My point was that I make NO EXCUSES whatsoever for our obvious error in being racist.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostI'm not really understanding how it's "holier than thou" to totally admit we were wrong, and we have repented and moved forward.
Can you shed some light on this for me? My point was that I make NO EXCUSES whatsoever for our obvious error in being racist.Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostYou seem to be lauding your group for admitting your mistakes and patting yourself on the back for openly discussing the teachings of your group in comparison to the perceived Mormon tactics of clamming up about mistakes and cloaking doctrines in secrecy. Admitting mistakes and being forthright in discussing one's beliefs are good things to do, but I don't see how pointing out that you're doing them is constructive.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostYou seem to be lauding your group for admitting your mistakes and patting yourself on the back for openly discussing the teachings of your group in comparison to the perceived Mormon tactics of clamming up about mistakes and cloaking doctrines in secrecy. Admitting mistakes and being forthright in discussing one's beliefs are good things to do, but I don't see how pointing out that you're doing them is constructive.
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostPaul seemed quite willing to do just that in 2 Cor 4Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by One Bad Pig View PostYou seem to be lauding your group for admitting your mistakes and patting yourself on the back for openly discussing the teachings of your group in comparison to the perceived Mormon tactics of clamming up about mistakes and cloaking doctrines in secrecy. Admitting mistakes and being forthright in discussing one's beliefs are good things to do, but I don't see how pointing out that you're doing them is constructive.I am Punkinhead.
"I have missed you, Oh Grand High Priestess of the Order of the Stirring Pot"
~ Cow Poke aka CP aka Creacher aka ke7ejx's apprentice....
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Originally posted by ke7ejx View PostYou see, Pig. I'm not sure that's what Cow Poke was going for. I interpreted it as him giving an example of how to own to your denomination's dirty laundry so to speak. That's at least what it looked like to me.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by ke7ejx View PostYou see, Pig. I'm not sure that's what Cow Poke was going for. I interpreted it as him giving an example of how to own to your denomination's dirty laundry so to speak. That's at least what it looked like to me.Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostThat is exactly what I intended. I'm trying to see how that comes across as "boasting", but... When I say I once was lost but now am found, was blind but now I see - am I "boasting"?Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist
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