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Thread: Are All White People Racist?

  1. #71
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by seanD View Post
    Black Panthers during the 60s-70s were calling (and actually hoping) for a race war. All races have been doing throughout history. Whateverman's trolling really is obnoxious. And if he's a white dude, that makes no sense why he's self-deprecating his own race with lies. If he's black, I guess I can see why he'd say stupid stuff like that if he's BLM advocate, but if he's white, that's just extremely creepy.
    I don't know the actual statistics on this, but anecdotally I've seen most of the white people I know say things similar to him(usually a bit less extreme). More than I've seen from black people - but most of the people I know are white, and liberal. Which is to say that Whateverman's trolling is certainly obnoxious and creepy, but not at all unexpected at this given moment.

  2. #72
    tWebber MaxVel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leonhard View Post
    As for the main thesis of the book by Robin DiAngelo I found it very interesting. I think what gets to people is that she takes a more modern sociological systems view of racism, where conservatives tend to focus on specific and very explicit actions on an individual level.

    Her whole point has also been that white people tend to get unreasonable upset when critical questions are asked, and it is suggested that we have tendencies, assumptions or biases that we might not be aware of. It's this unreasonableness that she's called 'White Fragility'.

    https://www.tolerance.org/magazine/s...robin-diangelo

    I have her book on the backburner, right now I'm reading the Oxford series on American History.

    Source: Robin DiAngelo - Tolerance Magazine

    What are some ways that white people can begin to build their emotional stamina?

    Foundationally [we] have to change our idea of what it means to be racist. As long as you define a racist as an individual who intentionally is mean, based on race, you’re going to feel defensive. When I say you’ve been shaped by a racist system—that it is inevitable that you have racist biases and patterns and investments—you’re going to feel offended by that. You will hear it as a comment on your moral character. You’re going to feel offended by that if you don’t change how you’re interpreting what I just said. And I would actually agree with anyone who felt offended when I say, “It is inevitable that you are racist,” if their definition of a racist is someone who means harm.

    When we understand racism as a system that we have been raised in and that its impact is inevitable, it’s really not a question of good or bad. It’s just, “I have it. I have been socialized into it.” And so, “What am I going to do about it?” is really the question. And that’s where, I think, maybe some guilt could come in, when you know that and you’re still not going to do anything about it. I don’t struggle with guilt because, to the best of my ability, I am trying to challenge my socialization. So, let me be really clear: As a result of being raised as a white person in this society, I have a racist worldview. I have racist biases. I have developed racist patterns as a result, and I have investments in the system of racism. It’s incredibly comfortable. It’s certainly helped me with the barriers that I do face. And I also have investments in not seeing anything I just said—because of what it would suggest to me about my identity as a good person, if I’m coming from the dominant definition, and what it would actually require of me in action. I don’t feel guilty about that, but I do feel responsible for what I do with that socialization.

    Change how you understand what it means to be racist, and then act on that understanding. Because if you change your understanding, but you don’t do anything different, then you’re colluding.

    © Copyright Original Source

    This idea of Robin DiAngelo's doesn't make sense to me.

    She redefines racism to mean 'being socialised in a system' rather than the standard meaning of 'a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human racial groups determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to dominate others or that a particular racial group is inferior to the others.'

    Charitably, she could be trying to say that people can be socialised into having racist beliefs and perhaps be unaware that they have them. That seems fairly uncontroversial.

    However, she then leaps to the conclusion that she (and presumably all other white people (?)) actually have racist beliefs. I don't think that necessarily follows, but if it does, then it also follows that people of other races (black, asian, european, whatever) are also racist due merely to being socialised in a particular racial group.

    But her argument has worse problems. She says that being socialised to be racist (let's pretend that this is actually what has happened to all white Americans) "...is not really a question of good or bad" and we shouldn't feel guilty about it, as it is merely an accident of birth. OK. So then a white American has no moral need to change or to try to stop being racist. After all, we don't feel a moral obligation to change other things we have been socialised into, such as our choice and use of dining cutlery (some culture use a spoon and fork, some a knife and fork, some chopsticks, etc); or liking to live in a extended family with multiple generations in the same house; or many other things.

    She presumably doesn't advocate for people to change other habits, or beliefs, or lifestyles that they have been socialised into. But why not, if there is no more or less moral content to those beliefs?

    If - as she says - she has no reason to feel guilty about her incipient racism, then she has no strong reason to change it, except insofar as she feels the need to yield to whatever the current social mores are. She's most welcome to change whatever she wants about herself, but she has given no reason for others to change, and has in fact destroyed the basis of any moral reason for such change.

    I wonder what she thinks about groups such as mainland Chinese, who are raised to be thoroughly racist in both thought and practice, and see it as a virtue rather than a fault. Ditto to a lesser degree many other Asian people groups (Japanese, Koreans, Thais, etc etc) who despise some other Asian people groups and/or non-Asians, and don't really see it as an issue. And I suspect that some African Americans are socialised in to being racist toward other people groups (see the racial divides prevalent in American prisons for an example).


    But wait... it gets worse still. Her belief that 'racism is something white people have been socialised into, without knowing it'; is itself merely something that SHE has been socialised into. So it's neither good or bad (like other beliefs we have been socialised into, according to her) and thus we have no moral obligation to accept it. As it happens, it's not a belief I have been socialised into - just as I have not been socialised to be racist, so I'm fine. I can safely ignore her as she works out her personal hangups, as long as she doesn't impinge on me living my life - which she is trying to do by writing a book to promote some unimportant beliefs she was socialised into.


    I'm sticking with the real definition of racism.

    1. a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human racial groups determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to dominate others or that a particular racial group is inferior to the others.
    2. a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.
    3. hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.
    Last edited by MaxVel; 08-01-2020 at 09:00 AM.
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  3. #73
    tWebber Ronson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seanD View Post
    Black Panthers during the 60s-70s were calling (and actually hoping) for a race war. All races have been doing throughout history. Whateverman's trolling really is obnoxious. And if he's a white dude, that makes no sense why he's self-deprecating his own race with lies. If he's black, I guess I can see why he'd say stupid stuff like that if he's BLM advocate, but if he's white, that's just extremely creepy.
    His tone was that most white people are "hoping" for a race war, then he linked to some WaPo history of the KKK to support the claim. I've never met a white person in my entire life who even hinted at wanting such a thing.

    The Black Panthers might have wanted it because they thought blacks were being oppressed. Would that mean "white people" want it because they're tired of oppressing blacks?

  4. #74
    tWebber MaxVel's Avatar
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    His user name gives the most sensible response to his posts.
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  5. Amen Cerebrum123 amen'd this post.
  6. #75
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeaC View Post
    I don't know the actual statistics on this, but anecdotally I've seen most of the white people I know say things similar to him(usually a bit less extreme). More than I've seen from black people - but most of the people I know are white, and liberal. Which is to say that Whateverman's trolling is certainly obnoxious and creepy, but not at all unexpected at this given moment.
    Liberals are definitely self-deprecating about their own race, and it's bizarre. My theory is that it's a form of projection, it's some weird psychological knee-jerk reaction to their own inherent racists feelings. IOW, white liberals are racist against blacks, but this bothers them deep down inside, and so they become hypersensitive to it and lash out at everyone else for being the racist. I also think there are some actual white supremacists that are only democrat in disguise because it allows them them to enact or support policy that actually hurts minorities (but that's a whole other subject). But for a white person to say whites want a race war is just so over-the-top bizarre to me for a white person to say that it just caught me off guard. I could understand if he's a black BLM advocate though. If not, then that's cult-like level mentality.
    "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

  7. #76
    tWebber Hypatia_Alexandria's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    That was not the point, Whatever suggested the Europeans instigated the slave trade in Africa, that was wrong. And you have no idea of the differing scales. And the fact that they are still practicing slavery.
    I have a sudden feeling of dj vu.

    Slavery and human exploitation is not confined to that continent. It takes place all over the world.
    "Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful" Attrib. Seneca 4 BCE - 65 CE

  8. #77
    tWebber Whateverman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    So you admit that you are a racist?
    I've seen racist tendencies in me, and have worked to stamp them out.

    Living in Boston when I was younger, I worked at a lab in Quincy, and met the head of the shipping department, Alan. He played bass, I played drums, and after talking about music, we decided to jam. This eventually resulted in the formation of our band, Chrome.

    Rehearsals took place in the projects in Green Hills, a suburb of Jamaica Plain. At that time, JP hadn't gentrified yet, and it had a large population of black people. The projects were somewhat low-income, and our rehearsals took place in the common area of a low-rise apartment building. I felt bad for the neighbors, but I never actually heard anyone complain.

    I was the only non-black person in the band, a pasty white drummer. I definitely felt out of my element, and stuck out in that neighborhood like a sore thumb. And yet we had fun. Race was never really an issue, and after we'd played there a few times, the neighbors knew me well enough that I stopped getting suspicious looks.

    It was just a band, but it was a good experience for me, sorta being on the opposite end of the equation. It helped me dispense with the bit or nervousness I'd had, which was really born of inexperience rather than an actual distrust of people who don't look like me.

    No, I'm not a racist. I've worked to make sure of it, though I haven't stopped working, either.
    I can solve the problem of evil without interfering with anyone's free will. So can your God, but he refuses. This is why I'm His moral superior.

  9. #78
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by seanD View Post
    Liberals are definitely self-deprecating about their own race, and it's bizarre. My theory is that it's a form of projection, it's some weird psychological knee-jerk reaction to their own inherent racists feelings. IOW, white liberals are racist against blacks, but this bothers them deep down inside, and so they become hypersensitive to it and lash out at everyone else for being the racist.
    Quote Originally Posted by Whateverman View Post
    I've seen racist tendencies in me, and have worked to stamp them out.
    I rest my case.
    "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

  10. Amen RumTumTugger amen'd this post.
  11. #79
    tWebber seer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
    I have a sudden feeling of dj vu.

    Slavery and human exploitation is not confined to that continent. It takes place all over the world.
    What the hell is your point? Do you even know? I corrected Whatever then you had to stick your big nose in with information that was not relevant to that discussion.
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

  12. #80
    tWebber Mountain Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whateverman View Post
    I've seen racist tendencies in me...
    Like I said, that's your problem, not mine.

    I actually lived in the inner city of Newark, New Jersey throughout junior high and high school where people with my skin color were a tiny minority, and it was really no big deal to me. I used to walk to work, and one day, a black guy on the corner stopped me and said, "What's it like to be a white boy like you living in the ghetto with all the [n-words]?" I shrugged my shoulders and said, "It doesn't bother me." He laughed, said a few expletives, and then resumed his conversation with his companion.

    I honestly can't imagine what it's like to harbor racist tendencies to the point that you have to actively guard against them, but good for you that you're working to overcome your own racism. Next step is to overcome your liberalism, and then perhaps you can be a productive member of civil society.
    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
    Than a fool in the eyes of God


    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

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