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Endeavor is returning to Earth

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
    C.S. Lewis said something to the effect of "There's never been a good time to be an artist, or a poet--people have always been composing on the front lines, making rhymes while the plague stalks outside..."

    Blessings,
    Lee
    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
      I admit to having a somewhat jaded response to all this. What purpose has it served? Why this fixation on going to Mars? We have trashed one planet in this solar system already - do we want to trash another?
      I think it is always a good question with any endeavor to ask, is it worth it. That goes for any endeavor humans do. Obviously if you personally don't get excited about this, then it has little value to you. I've always been a space enthusiast, and so these missions have great value to me.

      My Love of it has always centered around the long term future of mankind, as well scientific and engineering achievement. There are vast quantities of materials to mine in the asteroid belts, there is unlimited living space both in Earth orbit and on the surfaces of other planets. There are also many and varied technical challenges to overcome, which are exciting to overcome. The biggest of these is building a self-contained biosphere, which is a challenge that might be so difficult that it'll take us centuries to unlock all the mysteries of that.

      Who exactly will be sent on these proposed "colonising" enterprises and why? Who would really want to live on such a planet? What is there on Mars for a future human society?
      In the near term no one is proposing any serious efforts towards colonization. NASA is aiming for an an exploration outpost on the Moon, that'll complete the work that was left unfinished after the Apollo missions. There is still so much we don't know about the geology of the Moon. All the samples we have fit inside a couple of suitcases, and are all taken from a scant few regions. Whether geology is exciting to you, or anyone else is a question of scientific enthusiasm of course.

      With Mars I'm not sure we'll colonize it either, and even then such efforts are more than a century in the future. I believe we'll likely build space habitats if we want to settle space. As for who will be going, it seems clear by this point it'll be the space faring nations and perhaps some other astronauts who'll form the first outposts.

      Long term efforts will depend on price. For decades we've had such a small market for sending things into space that we've made do with rockets that are expended after use. This is ridiculously expensive, imagine paying for the airplane each time you had to fly to another city, a ticket would cost hundreds of thousands of dollars. But both SpaceX, as well as Blue Origin and others are focusing on building fast reusable rockets which could cut costs by two orders of magnitude compared to earlier missions. That would reduce a trip+return ticket to something like 50-100 thousand dollars per person. About the price of the arctic expeditions.

      I don't believe people will colonize then, but launching things into space and will not be as limiting a factor as it used to be. I support developing that capabilities. It's technological development with a very long term reach: Long wait, high pay off.

      Why does Musk want to make space travel available to everyone?
      My guess is that he's also just excited about it. And wants humanity to also have the ability to make use of space resources eventually. The key to unlocking that is developing cheap access to space.

      Furthermore, given the problems on this planet - our only home at present - it seems Mr Musk would have been better employed spending his money to alleviate existing problems here.
      I think this is a bit of a fallacy, there's nothing that indicates that we can't focus on many things at once, or that by giving resources to NASA you're preventing something significant from happening. NASA's budget is not that big in the long term, and its been reduced over several budget cuts to where it is today. What is being achieved was achieved mainly by Obama axing the shuttle program, which had never achieved the design goals it had set out to.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
        Is there anything you get excited about? Hope to see? Worked hard to achieve?

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
          Is there anything you get excited about? Hope to see? Worked hard to achieve?
          My link was jocular.

          I find many things exciting. However, human space exploration is not one of those things. Probes and telescopes definitely but let's be frank Leonhard, this endeavour has an underlying large dose of nationalism, as did those Apollo missions, as well as possible similar military implications.

          This is not purely an altruistic endeavour to find resources and to help humanity.
          "It ain't necessarily so
          The things that you're liable
          To read in the Bible
          It ain't necessarily so
          ."

          Sportin' Life
          Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
            My link was jocular.

            I find many things exciting. However, human space exploration is not one of those things. Probes and telescopes definitely but let's be frank Leonhard, this endeavour has an underlying large dose of nationalism, as did those Apollo missions, as well as possible similar military implications.

            This is not purely an altruistic endeavour to find resources and to help humanity.
            I use a cordless drill at least once a week that is a result of space exploration!
            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
              I think it is always a good question with any endeavor to ask, is it worth it. That goes for any endeavor humans do. Obviously if you personally don't get excited about this, then it has little value to you. I've always been a space enthusiast, and so these missions have great value to me.

              My Love of it has always centered around the long term future of mankind, as well scientific and engineering achievement. There are vast quantities of materials to mine in the asteroid belts, there is unlimited living space both in Earth orbit and on the surfaces of other planets. There are also many and varied technical challenges to overcome, which are exciting to overcome. The biggest of these is building a self-contained biosphere, which is a challenge that might be so difficult that it'll take us centuries to unlock all the mysteries of that.
              If we are still around!


              Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
              In the near term no one is proposing any serious efforts towards colonization. NASA is aiming for an an exploration outpost on the Moon, that'll complete the work that was left unfinished after the Apollo missions. There is still so much we don't know about the geology of the Moon. All the samples we have fit inside a couple of suitcases, and are all taken from a scant few regions. Whether geology is exciting to you, or anyone else is a question of scientific enthusiasm of course.
              Why not send a probe?

              Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
              With Mars I'm not sure we'll colonize it either, and even then such efforts are more than a century in the future. I believe we'll likely build space habitats if we want to settle space. As for who will be going, it seems clear by this point it'll be the space faring nations and perhaps some other astronauts who'll form the first outposts.

              Long term efforts will depend on price. For decades we've had such a small market for sending things into space that we've made do with rockets that are expended after use. This is ridiculously expensive, imagine paying for the airplane each time you had to fly to another city, a ticket would cost hundreds of thousands of dollars. But both SpaceX, as well as Blue Origin and others are focusing on building fast reusable rockets which could cut costs by two orders of magnitude compared to earlier missions. That would reduce a trip+return ticket to something like 50-100 thousand dollars per person. About the price of the arctic expeditions.

              I don't believe people will colonize then, but launching things into space and will not be as limiting a factor as it used to be. I support developing that capabilities. It's technological development with a very long term reach: Long wait, high pay off.
              As I remarked, if we are still around.
              "It ain't necessarily so
              The things that you're liable
              To read in the Bible
              It ain't necessarily so
              ."

              Sportin' Life
              Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                If we are still around!
                It would be odd to do things conditional on mans existence. “Let’s fund an art museum, but humanity might not be around to enjoy it in two hundred years so what is the point?”

                Why not send a probe?
                There will be several probes. But they don’t excite me the way space exploration does.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                  I find many things exciting. However, human space exploration is not one of those things. Probes and telescopes definitely but let's be frank Leonhard, this endeavour has an underlying large dose of nationalism, as did those Apollo missions, as well as possible similar military implications.
                  What is wrong with national pride? Or doing something like this because of its inspirational value? I am not sure what you mean about military implications. The solar system is so vast that any country on Earth could lay claim to a thousand times their current resources.

                  If anyone wants to set up a military base to defend a minuscule fraction of the lie be my guest.

                  This is not purely an altruistic endeavour to find resources and to help humanity.
                  I’d agree with that. Neither are certain companies interests in renewable energy completely altruistic, they also seek to earn quite a bit of cash in discovering and opening up new markets. But this doesn’t mean we shouldn’t do it.

                  The biggest argument against it that I can respect is if it would require an Apollo era budget to achieve. The current endeavors aren’t.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                    It would be odd to do things conditional on mans existence. “Let’s fund an art museum, but humanity might not be around to enjoy it in two hundred years so what is the point?”
                    Preserving the past is not quite the same thing.

                    Nor should we forget Shelley's poem on hubris.

                    And on the pedestal these words appear:
                    'My name is Ozymandias, king of kings:
                    Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!'
                    Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
                    Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare
                    The lone and level sands stretch far away



                    Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                    There will be several probes. But they don’t excite me the way space exploration does.
                    Are not probes a form of space exploration? Who knows what Voyager 1 will eventually encounter? Although we are unlikely ever to know about it.
                    "It ain't necessarily so
                    The things that you're liable
                    To read in the Bible
                    It ain't necessarily so
                    ."

                    Sportin' Life
                    Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                      What is wrong with national pride?
                      That depends on what you consider to be "national pride". In my opinion such "national pride" is often used as a sop - Bread and Circuses as it were. Hence countries like Pakistan that cannot provide adequate healthcare, and clean water, or feed, house, and educate their citizens have a Space Programme.

                      Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                      Or doing something like this because of its inspirational value?
                      How about using human ingenuity and the resources of the first world to remove our detritus from the planet's oceans? Or providing clean water, housing, healthcare, and education for the world's poorest? Think what the trillions of dollars spent in the 1960s on the space programme could have done had that money been spent on other concerns.

                      Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                      I am not sure what you mean about military implications.
                      Oh come now. You know the history of the period. In 1957 Sputnik had caused very serious concerns for the USA [I refrain from using the word "terrified"].

                      Hence Kennedy's desire to put men on the moon by the end of the decade of the 1960s. It was the height of the Cold War and US ambitions were about national prestige with the concomitant military implications. Then we had Reagan's so called Star Wars programme and of course Trump's latest Space Force whose title sounds like that of a children's sci-fi television series.

                      Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                      The solar system is so vast that any country on Earth could lay claim to a thousand times their current resources.
                      I do not consider territorial claims to be the issue.

                      Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                      I’d agree with that.
                      Well we have agreed on at least one thing.

                      Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                      Neither are certain companies interests in renewable energy completely altruistic, they also seek to earn quite a bit of cash in discovering and opening up new markets.
                      One might argue that their aims are slightly more laudable given that renewable energy [and any research into that field] offers benefits to people here and now.

                      Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                      But this doesn’t mean we shouldn’t do it.
                      My concern is not about whether or not we should do it.

                      My point is, what will it ultimately achieve for human life? As far as I can deduce at the present, precious little, apart from a lot money being spent that could be deployed into [in my opinion] more worthwhile endeavours on this planet. And the inevitable result of such expeditions with even more space junk.

                      Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                      The biggest argument against it that I can respect is if it would require an Apollo era budget to achieve. The current endeavors aren’t.
                      Of course that cash may arrive if the military potential is deemed worth it.
                      "It ain't necessarily so
                      The things that you're liable
                      To read in the Bible
                      It ain't necessarily so
                      ."

                      Sportin' Life
                      Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                        I use a cordless drill at least once a week that is a result of space exploration!
                        Oh well then, your drill and non-stick pans show that those trillions of dollars were really well spent!
                        "It ain't necessarily so
                        The things that you're liable
                        To read in the Bible
                        It ain't necessarily so
                        ."

                        Sportin' Life
                        Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                          Preserving the past is not quite the same thing.

                          Nor should we forget Shelley's poem on hubris.

                          And on the pedestal these words appear:
                          'My name is Ozymandias, king of kings:
                          Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!'
                          Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
                          Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare
                          The lone and level sands stretch far away
                          I'm not quite as fatalistic as believing humanity will be gone any time soon. We shouldn't begin to narrow our time horizon of plans, I think it would actually do humanity a lot of good to take a longer perspective. Get us out of a mentality that is constantly focused on the narrow circle of an election cycle.

                          Are not probes a form of space exploration? Who knows what Voyager 1 will eventually encounter? Although we are unlikely ever to know about it.
                          I support all the space probe programs, from the Gravity B probe to Kepler Telescope. They can also be very expensive, in fact one of them has cost significantly more than the entire SpaceX participation in the NASA COTS program.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                            That depends on what you consider to be "national pride". In my opinion such "national pride" is often used as a sop - Bread and Circuses as it were. Hence countries like Pakistan that cannot provide adequate healthcare, and clean water, or feed, house, and educate their citizens have a Space Programme.
                            I support that as long as it's a similar tiny fraction of the governments budget. I'm all for it. I don't hold it against Pakistan for pursuing something lofty. At the very least its stuff like that which excited me about science when I was young, when I got into science I learned other things about it that made me love it in and of itself.

                            How about using human ingenuity and the resources of the first world to remove our detritus from the planet's oceans? Or providing clean water, housing, healthcare, and education for the world's poorest? Think what the trillions of dollars spent in the 1960s on the space programme could have done had that money been spent on other concerns.
                            It was never trillions, adjusted by inflation all the money they've received since their inception comes to be about 1.17 trillion $ (source). It's about the US military budget for one year. Or about 10% of what the US spends each year on welfare. On a year by year comparison NASA is one thousandth of what is spent on welfare.

                            I honestly think people have tendency to exagerate their budget.

                            Secondly, the sad fact about detritus in the oceans is that its not the first world that is producing the vast majority of it. You would be looking at India and South East Asia there, that have entire rivers full of plastic draining into the oceans. This puts the west in a bit of a tough spot. What should we do about that? As a feminist I consider it colonialist for us to march in there and dictate the solutions. We can reign in our own plastic pollution, but until those rivers have been shut down any attempt at cleaning it up is doomed to fail.

                            Oh come now. You know the history of the period. In 1957 Sputnik had caused very serious concerns for the USA [I refrain from using the word "terrified"].
                            There's no doubt that there was a tight link between the arms race back then and the space race. Those arms races have left a sour afternote on the nuclear industry which still to this day maintains a lot of secrecy and lack of transparency as institutional practices because much of the technology was dedicated towards the development of nuclear weapons. However the space race didn't produce orbital weapons platforms like they feared would be the norm in the sixties and seventies by now. Mostly we just have a lot of satellites.

                            The only military application that could make sense in space would be a nuclear missile platform in order to reduce time to strike from from twenty or so minutes to eight, but keeping something like that secret is practically impossible, and would only serve to create a counter escalation. So I'm glad to see that the worlds nations were satisfied with the nuclear stand off as it is.

                            Military bases on the lunar surface or on Mars make no sense. So I see no overwhelming risk of military applications in this.

                            One might argue that their aims are slightly more laudable given that renewable energy [and any research into that field] offers benefits to people here and now.
                            It's a fair point, but that's an industry with a budget several orders of magnitude larger than NASA's. If you closed down NASA you'd be able accelerate those markets by a few percent, but that's about it.

                            My concern is not about whether or not we should do it.
                            Well if anything the reusable rockets high-capacity that SpaceX have developed is allowing them to create a grid of satellites what can provide high-broadband connection anywhere in the world. This will be a boon to many places in Africa and South East Asia and their economies. It's being achieved at a fraction of the price rolling out cables would do it. We wouldn't have had the capability to do this if we hadn't developed resusable rockets with their inherent cost savings.

                            My point is, what will it ultimately achieve for human life? As far as I can deduce at the present, precious little, apart from a lot money being spent that could be deployed into [in my opinion] more worthwhile endeavours on this planet. And the inevitable result of such expeditions with even more space junk.
                            You do realize that satellites today are build with deorbit capability. Many have a tiny electric high efficiency xenon ion thruster about the size of the bottom of a pepsi can. It can push them down far enough in velocity where they dip into the atmosphere and burn up safely. It's all the old satellites that are the trouble.

                            Of course that cash may arrive if the military potential is deemed worth it.
                            Lordy.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              FAO Leonhard. I suspect that on most subjects you and I are on approximately the same side. Reading a reply on my own thread on Civics 101 I note that you have only recently found Christianity, albeit, not the Christianity some here would wholeheartedly condone! I tend to find that Catholics usually [albeit not always] show a little more humility in their faith and a more tolerant view of the world, which I find rather appealing even though I do not have any Christian beliefs.

                              However, on this topic, we are not going to agree. Enjoy your fascination with human space exploration.

                              Go well.

                              H_A
                              "It ain't necessarily so
                              The things that you're liable
                              To read in the Bible
                              It ain't necessarily so
                              ."

                              Sportin' Life
                              Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                                Preserving the past is not quite the same thing.

                                Nor should we forget Shelley's poem on hubris.

                                And on the pedestal these words appear:
                                'My name is Ozymandias, king of kings:
                                Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!'
                                Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
                                Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare
                                The lone and level sands stretch far away



                                Are not probes a form of space exploration? Who knows what Voyager 1 will eventually encounter? Although we are unlikely ever to know about it.
                                If H_A was in charge we would all be sitting in caves in a single valley banned from traveling over the mountains as too dangerous to risk

                                I'm always still in trouble again

                                "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                                "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                                "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

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