Pastor Defies State Orders...

[Cow Poke]

WoW! No - I used it to point out being 'in church' is not the same as being in a certain building at a certain time on Sunday. Nor is there any minimum population. Nor does it exclude things like phone calls or zoom meetings.

I posted, and quoted, exactly what you said, Jim. It's there for all to see - and, as I said, I agree with a whole bunch of what you said.

I'm not disagreeing with the fact it is used as support, encouragement, for those that are engaged in church discipline in that passage. I am disagreeing with the idea that is the ONLY context in which it applies or can be quoted. The truth of it applies broadly and in many contexts. It stands alone and is true in many contexts.

You invented the "only". None of us has made that claim. However, it simply doesn't fit the justification for not being "in Church", (that's the context in which you used it) or many other applications where the scripture is simply misused.

[Cow Poke]

This kinda reminds me of the story about the guy who was truly seeking God's will for his life.
He decided to seek the Lord, and the Word, and he sat down in front of his Bible on a table.

He decided to close his eyes, plop the Bible down and let it fall open, and wherever his finger touched, he'd do that.

First stab -- "and Judas went out and hanged himself".

Ooooooops... try again...

"go thou and do likewise"

wow, ok, one more try

"that which you do, do quickly".


He decided it wasn't such a good idea to do his theology that way.

[mossrose]

You mean this:



mossy - I attend when I can. Right now I'm having to make 800 mile round trips every 4 days to tend to my father who is feeble and my mother who is dying of alzheimers. She no longer knows who we are. And it is tearing all of us up. And that is just one of the things happening in my life that is requiring my service in the Lord and through Him. And with that happening I've also helped other churches record multiwindow choir speicials, providing both practice tracks and recording services, I've attended my own church. I've provided solo recorded music for additional churches and when I can I attend two different church midweek zoom gatherings and Bible studies, my own, and a church I sang for regularly before covid. And I've even sung at one in person funeral - properly distanced with attendance limited, and everyone masked.

When I'm at my dad's, I attend their virtual services. ALL the churches I work with are NOT yet having in person services, though they are working towards that - as they should be given the risk to their congregants of in person services.

All but one is evangelical.

I am truly sorry about your parents. May God give you all grace and peace as you minister to them.

[Zymologist]

You mean this:



mossy - I attend when I can. Right now I'm having to make 800 mile round trips every 4 days to tend to my father who is feeble and my mother who is dying of alzheimers. She no longer knows who we are. And it is tearing all of us up. And that is just one of the things happening in my life that is requiring my service in the Lord and through Him. And with that happening I've also helped other churches record multiwindow choir speicials, providing both practice tracks and recording services, I've attended my own church. I've provided solo recorded music for additional churches and when I can I attend two different church midweek zoom gatherings and Bible studies, my own, and a church I sang for regularly before covid. And I've even sung at one in person funeral - properly distanced with attendance limited, and everyone masked.

When I'm at my dad's, I attend their virtual services. ALL the churches I work with are NOT yet having in person services, though they are working towards that - as they should be given the risk to their congregants of in person services.

All but one is evangelical.

FWIW, genuinely sorry to hear that about your parents.

[seer]

mossy - I attend when I can. Right now I'm having to make 800 mile round trips every 4 days to tend to my father who is feeble and my mother who is dying of alzheimers.

So sorry to hear that, I lost my mother and six of my seven aunts due to complications from alzheimers. Thankfully we all lived close together so I was able to spend a lot of time with them.

[oxmixmudd]

This kinda reminds me of the story about the guy who was truly seeking God's will for his life.
He decided to seek the Lord, and the Word, and he sat down in front of his Bible on a table.

He decided to close his eyes, plop the Bible down and let it fall open, and wherever his finger touched, he'd do that.

First stab -- "and Judas went out and hanged himself".

Ooooooops... try again...

"go thou and do likewise"

wow, ok, one more try

"that which you do, do quickly".


He decided it wasn't such a good idea to do his theology that way.

Comparing my approach to vs 18 through 20 to this highlights the great divide between us. It is not even remotely related, but serves only as a mechanism to mock what I've said. You really seem to have no respect at all for the fact we all will give an account one day for the harm our careless words have caused.

[Cow Poke]

Comparing my approach

Isn't the "correct approach" more important than "your" or "my" approach?
You're using eisegeses rather than exegesis.
You are using a key passage out of context because it "feels good".

to vs 18 through 20 to this highlights the great divide between us.

Actually, in this case, it also highlights the great divide between you and most biblical scholars and commentators.
Just out of curiosity, I Googled "where two or three are gathered", and, instantly, a whole bunch of sources I trust had articles like "one of the most misunderstood (or misused) verses in the Bible".

The Real Meaning of ‘When Two or Three are Gathered’ in the Bible
Why the Context "Where Two or Three Are Gathered" (Matthew 18:20) is So Important
What is the meaning of “where two or three are gathered” in Matthew 18:20?
"Where Two or Three Are Gathered In My Name..."
Where Two or Three Are Gathered . . . or One?
https://ourrabbijesus.com/where-two-...-are-gathered/

You're simply wrong. And you seem absolutely incapable of being wrong.

It is not even remotely related, but serves only as a mechanism to mock what I've said.

How did you become so incredibly insecure?
I'm just a guy on the internet, whom you have mocked and denigrated, but I don't go into a deep dark depression over it, because you're just another man.
You have a right to your opinion, and you have a right to be wrong. I don't freak out over it.
Why do you allow me to have so much power over you?

You really seem to have no respect at all for the fact we all will give an account one day for the harm our careless words have caused.

Jim - the more I interact with you, the less I believe you have a solid personal relationship with Christ.
When you attack me, it rolls off my back like water, because, in all truthfulness, I have pretty much lost respect for you as a person.

So - you really need to ask yourself. Why is it that you allow me to have so much power over you?

[mossrose]

Comparing my approach to vs 18 through 20 to this highlights the great divide between us. It is not even remotely related, but serves only as a mechanism to mock what I've said. You really seem to have no respect at all for the fact we all will give an account one day for the harm our careless words have caused.

Your carelessness with your mishandling of scripture certainly will be held to account one day. How much harm might you be doing to a new believer who may see what you've said and think they can pull a verse out of context and make it fit their own narrative?

[NorrinRadd]

Apparently now a "restraining order" against J-Mac is in the works.

Not sure why he should pay that any more heed than any of the other puffs of flatulence from Caesar.

[mossrose]

Apparently now a "restraining order" against J-Mac is in the works.

Not sure why he should pay that any more heed than any of the other puffs of flatulence from Caesar.

If you check the thread in Christianity titled Persection in California, I posted yesterday that he and GCC are suing Newsom and some others.

Edit: after a quick search I see that the restraining order is a response to the lawsuit.

https://www.dailywire.com/news/l-a-c...-after-lawsuit

Newsom, I think, has a personal hate on for MacArthur since a Larry King show in 2012 when Newsome was mayor of San Francisco.

MacArthur cleaned Newsom's clock on the homosexuality issue.

[The Melody Maker]

If this "restraining order" passes, I'll begin calling the city "Los Angeles Caidos."

[mossrose]

If this "restraining order" passes, I'll begin calling the city "Los Angeles Caidos."

Now you need to translate that for me.

[oxmixmudd]

Your carelessness with your mishandling of scripture certainly will be held to account one day. How much harm might you be doing to a new believer who may see what you've said and think they can pull a verse out of context and make it fit their own narrative?

It wasn't mishandled. You and CP just have a particularly narrow view of how to interpret that specific text. And one that you in fact can't maintain as a general principle. Neither of you will deny the truth of vs 20 in ANY context. Where two or more are gathered in His name he is there is in fact true in many contexts, not just church discipline. What is happening in that passage is that the writer is simply reminding the person of this most basic truth to give them courage and confidence as they implement the prescribed disciplinary protocol

Neither of you will admit that the scope necessarily broadens in verses 18-20, even though it is obvious it does. Yet you must allow for that. Indeed, to say a verse can only apply in the direct context is to say the Bible says nothing about medical abortion, nothing about hallucinogenic drug use, nothing at all about pornography or even speeding in a car. There are no verses that address those topics specifically. One must take the general truth we are to obey civil laws and apply that to our modern culture. We must take the general principle of the value of life and apply that to the case of medical abortion. You can't even condemn slavery directly from scripture, you must take the general principle we are all the same in Christ and apply that to the issue of slavery. In general, you must take the principles outlined in other contexts and apply them to the specific present day context. It's so instinctive to do this I'm not sure you'll even grasp that if you applied your approach to this verse you have advocated in your criticism of me to all of scripture, you'd end up unable to deal with modern issues from scripture. It is critical that the basic principles defined in scripture be applied outside a rigid reading of the original context in order to use it to guide our lives in the modern world.

vs 18 through 20 are not ONLY for church discipline. They describe general principles and truths that are applicable in many situations where believers are together in prayer to do God's will. And vs 20 is the most general of the three.

[Cow Poke]

It wasn't mishandled. You and CP just have a particularly narrow view of how to interpret that specific text.

It's called exegesis.

And one that you in fact can't maintain as a general principle. Neither of you will deny the truth of vs 20 in ANY context. Where two or more are gathered in His name he is there is in fact true in many contexts, not just church discipline. What is happening in that passage is that the writer is simply reminding the person of this most basic truth to give them courage and confidence as they implement the prescribed disciplinary protocol

Because something is true does not require a particular scripture to be taken out of context to support it.

Neither of you will admit that the scope necessarily broadens in verses 18-20, even though it is obvious it does. Yet you must allow for that. Indeed, to say a verse can only apply in the direct context is to say the Bible says nothing about medical abortion, nothing about hallucinogenic drug use, nothing at all about pornography or even speeding in a car. There are no verses that address those topics specifically. One must take the general truth we are to obey civil laws and apply that to our modern culture. We must take the general principle of the value of life and apply that to the case of medical abortion. You can't even condemn slavery directly from scripture, you must take the general principle we are all the same in Christ and apply that to the issue of slavery. In general, you must take the principles outlined in other contexts and apply them to the specific present day context. It's so instinctive to do this I'm not sure you'll even grasp that if you applied your approach to this verse you have advocated in your criticism of me to all of scripture, you'd end up unable to deal with modern issues from scripture. It is critical that the basic principles defined in scripture be applied outside a rigid reading of the original context in order to use it to guide our lives in the modern world.

Jim, just stating that something is "obvious" is not proof. There is plenty of Biblical support for Jesus being with those of us who are saved -- there is no need to rip a verse out of context to try to back that up.

vs 18 through 20 are not ONLY for church discipline. They describe general principles and truths that are applicable in many situations where believers are together in prayer to do God's will. And vs 20 is the most general of the three.

It's all part of the same paragraph, and I have given you many evidences from reliable sources. All you got is repeating over and over "it's obvious". No. It's not.

You used that verse to counter Rogue's sentiment that "in Church" worship is preferable. Your response was a very sloppy misuse of scripture.

[oxmixmudd]

It's called exegesis.



Because something is true does not require a particular scripture to be taken out of context to support it.



Jim, just stating that something is "obvious" is not proof. There is plenty of Biblical support for Jesus being with those of us who are saved -- there is no need to rip a verse out of context to try to back that up.



It's all part of the same paragraph, and I have given you many evidences from reliable sources. All you got is repeating over and over "it's obvious". No. It's not.

You used that verse to counter Rogue's sentiment that "in Church" worship is preferable. Your response was a very sloppy misuse of scripture.

I disagree. My response was the reality that in this time we can find other ways to meet together other than large elaborate gatherings in a church building - and God will be there with us as we do it.

You've misunderstood and misconstrued nearly every aspect of what I said.

And saying that Christ will be there in our midst when we meet together, wherever and however, is not a misuse of scripture. It is stating one of the most fundamental truths of scripture.


Again, do you deny that when two or more of us meet together to pray, or worship, or study the word of God that He is there?

If you don't deny that, then your claim I've misused scripture is nothing more than personal acrimony.