Pastor Defies State Orders...

[mossrose]

Seeing it as only applying to discipline and inappropriate to be used in any other context is 'out there' and misunderstands the purpose.

And you also forget she was trying to undermine the post I'd previously mentioned which is a plain, simple, and 100% Biblical encouragement to all of us that we can worship outside church walls as may well be required in this pandemic and expect and know the Lord is there with is. I can't imagine how such a simple and peaceful encouragement to faith and trust that God through this time where most church doors are shuttered could have led to this end. But it is truly a sad thing.

I was not undermining your post. I was correcting your error about what the passage YOU brought up was saying. You took the pertinent, to you, verse out of context, as so many people do, to try to make it say what it does not.

The Bible doesn't say anything about where to worship as you suggest. It also says nothing about worshiping during a pandemic. I have the utmost faith and trust in my God through this time to do with me as He will. If it is my time to go during this time, then so be it. If it is not my time to go now, then no virus will take me against His will for me. There is not one thing that I can do, as scripture says, to add one jot or tittle to my life.

Perhaps you live your life in fear, but I do not, and Christians who are secure in knowing where they will be when they leave this life are also not living their life in fear. I'm sorry you are afraid.

[oxmixmudd]

I like how Tim Chaffey, author and founder of Midwest Apologetics, says it....

“First of all, Jesus said ‘where two or three are gathered’ in His name, so how could this apply to settings of four or more? Also, why would it take two or three believers to be gathered together for Jesus to be in their midst? Isn’t he already present in each and every individual believer? So even if one Christian prays, isn’t Jesus already there?”

It's one of those "comforting" verses taken out of context, often to justify small attendances at Bible studies, prayer meetings, Church services, etc.

This is crazy. But there is nothing I can do about. God is with us when we meet together. That is great truth, a magnificent truth. Didn't you complain I never post good things? Well here is a great thing CP. It means we don't need a building, we don't need a preacher, we don't need special cloths or special place. And even if it's just two of us, He is there. What wonderful truth! A joyous thing. I posted it as an encouragement to all of us. Why you have to turn it into this - whatever it is - I just don't understand.

[mossrose]

I like how Tim Chaffey, author and founder of Midwest Apologetics, says it....

“First of all, Jesus said ‘where two or three are gathered’ in His name, so how could this apply to settings of four or more? Also, why would it take two or three believers to be gathered together for Jesus to be in their midst? Isn’t he already present in each and every individual believer? So even if one Christian prays, isn’t Jesus already there?”

It's one of those "comforting" verses taken out of context, often to justify small attendances at Bible studies, prayer meetings, Church services, etc.

I've often said that I don't need anybody else to have the Lord present with me. He just is. It makes me roll my eyes and shake my head when I see that verse used in that regard.

[oxmixmudd]

I was not undermining your post. I was correcting your error about what the passage YOU brought up was saying. You took the pertinent, to you, verse out of context, as so many people do, to try to make it say what it does not.

The Bible doesn't say anything about where to worship as you suggest. It also says nothing about worshiping during a pandemic. I have the utmost faith and trust in my God through this time to do with me as He will. If it is my time to go during this time, then so be it. If it is not my time to go now, then no virus will take me against His will for me. There is not one thing that I can do, as scripture says, to add one jot or tittle to my life.

Perhaps you live your life in fear, but I do not, and Christians who are secure in knowing where they will be when they leave this life are also not living their life in fear. I'm sorry you are afraid.

I don't know what is blinding you to my words mossy, but you are so completely wrong about all of this - especially about who I am.

[mossrose]

This is crazy. But there is nothing I can do about. God is with us when we meet together. That is great truth, a magnificent truth. Didn't you complain I never post good things? Well here is a great thing CP. It means we don't need a building, we don't need a preacher, we don't need special cloths or special place. And even if it's just two of us, He is there. What wonderful truth! A joyous thing. I posted it as an encouragement to all of us. Why you have to turn it into this - whatever it is - I just don't understand.

We didn't turn it into anything except an attempt to correct your misuse of a passage of scripture to suit your own ends.

By the way, you still haven't answered my (now thrice repeated) questions about your own church. You make me think you are avoiding the question.

[mossrose]

I don't know what is blinding you to my words mossy, but you are so completely wrong about all of this - especially about who I am.

Your words are completely clear to me, ox. You are using scripture taken out of context to suit your own ideas. I am not the wrong one here.

[Cow Poke]

This is crazy. But there is nothing I can do about. God is with us when we meet together.

Absolutely, so we don't need a verse ripped out of context to declare that. He has also promised never to leave or forsake me. He is with me wherever I go, whether I'm by myself or with 2 or 3 others.

That is great truth, a magnificent truth.

Yup. It truly is.

Didn't you complain I never post good things?

OK, you get credit for trying.

Well here is a great thing CP. It means we don't need a building, we don't need a preacher, we don't need special cloths or special place.

Well, kinda, but we're also admonished not to forsake the assembling together, and the model for the Church is, indeed, an "assembly".

And even if it's just two of us, He is there.

Or even ONE! Praise Him from whom all blessings flow!!!

What wonderful truth! A joyous thing. I posted it as an encouragement to all of us. Why you have to turn it into this - whatever it is - I just don't understand.

No, moss corrected you on a scripture that is frequently taken out of context, and she's right. We do not need to take Bible verses out of context to support what we find clearly elsewhere in the Scripture.

[oxmixmudd]

Your words are completely clear to me, ox. You are using scripture taken out of context to suit your own ideas. I am not the wrong one here.

You are not wrong that those verses follow a text on discipline and are being applied to discipline in that passage.

What you are wrong about is the idea that vs 20 can ONLY be used in the context of discipline. It is much broader than that.

[Cow Poke]

You are not wrong that those verses follow a text on discipline and are being applied to discipline in that passage.

What you are wrong about is the idea that vs 20 can ONLY be used in the context of discipline. It is much broader than that.

You're being slippery again, but I'm sure it's not intentional. We are not saying (or, at least, I'm not) that it can ONLY be used in the context of discipline, or, more correctly, "restoring a brother', but it is NOT an excuse not to assemble with believers.

[mossrose]

You're being slippery again, but I'm sure it's not intentional. We are not saying (or, at least, I'm not) that it can ONLY be used in the context of discipline, or, more correctly, "restoring a brother', but it is NOT an excuse not to assemble with believers.

Yes.

[Cow Poke]

So, I decided to go back and see how all this got started, and here, I believe, is where it got started.... (I can always blame my brudder Rogue for starting a fight )

Rogue said...

I think that is true about virtually anything. Watching something on TV, whether it be a church service, sporting event or even a tour of some location, is not the same as being there yourself.

And, you, Ox, used that verse to justify NOT being "in Church" - which is CLEARLY not its intent at all....

Wherever two or three are gathered in my name, i am there in the midst of them.

We do not need to be gathered in massive crowds. We do not need to have elaborate musical shows to sing along with, nor do we need sermons that will live in the annals of oratory. We can gather in homes, in parks, under tents, in zoom sessions, on phone calls. And wherever we gather, He is there. During this time, because of our love for others, we need to get back to the basics of what 'church' actually is, because these extra trapings we've invented for our pleasure are not at all necessary to the core of what the assembling of the saints actually is. And as we act in faith and obedience in a time where such elaborate and large gatherings put others lives at risk, we must have faith and realize that wherever two or more are gathered in His name, He is there in our midst.

I actually agree with a whole bunch of what you said in the second paragraph. But Matt 18:20 is simply not intended as justification for that.

[oxmixmudd]

We didn't turn it into anything except an attempt to correct your misuse of a passage of scripture to suit your own ends.

By the way, you still haven't answered my (now thrice repeated) questions about your own church. You make me think you are avoiding the question.

You mean this:

... Are you attending? If not, and if they are open with the restrictions you seem to think are ok, why not?

mossy - I attend when I can. Right now I'm having to make 800 mile round trips every 4 days to tend to my father who is feeble and my mother who is dying of alzheimers. She no longer knows who we are. And it is tearing all of us up. And that is just one of the things happening in my life that is requiring my service in the Lord and through Him. And with that happening I've also helped other churches record multiwindow choir speicials, providing both practice tracks and recording services, I've attended my own church. I've provided solo recorded music for additional churches and when I can I attend two different church midweek zoom gatherings and Bible studies, my own, and a church I sang for regularly before covid. And I've even sung at one in person funeral - properly distanced with attendance limited, and everyone masked.

When I'm at my dad's, I attend their virtual services. ALL the churches I work with are NOT yet having in person services, though they are working towards that - as they should be given the risk to their congregants of in person services.

All but one is evangelical.

[NorrinRadd]

wow. You are out there. 18/19/20 are not about church discipline, they are a shift in topic, and are about the power of prayer.

Craig Keener, from the IVP Bible Background Commentary:

Matt 18:15. This procedure reflects standard Jewish custom; the *Dead Sea Scrolls, the rabbis and others demand that one begin with private reproof. Publicly shaming someone unnecessarily was considered sinful, and Jewish teachers stressed the importance of receiving reproof.

Matt 18:16. Deuteronomy 19:15 (cf. 17:6-7) was the standard text Jewish authorities cited for requiring two witnesses. (Later rabbis took this principle so far that one eyewitness was not sufficient even if the eyewitness caught the murderer with the bloody knife in hand.) A final warning was merciful (e.g., Deut 25:8). Strict judicial procedures are being followed at this point because a judicial action is about to take place; Jesus here agrees with the Jewish practice of private rebuke, witnesses and finally, if *repentance is not forthcoming, the judicial assembly (18:17).

Matt 18:17. A church by definition would function as an ancient *synagogue would, and ancient synagogues were not only assembly halls for prayer and study but community centers where discipline would be inflicted on an erring member of the community. (Both “synagogue” and “church” ultimately render the same Hebrew expression for God’s community.) This discipline could take a variety of forms, including public beating, but the most severe were several levels of dismissal from the community. After the most severe level of discipline the offending member would be treated as a pagan instead of as a Jew. Pagans and *tax gatherers alike—tax gatherers were seen as agents of a pagan government—were excluded from the religious life of the Jewish community. Giving a person a final warning before a court would take action (e.g., Deut 25:8) was an act of mercy.

Matt 18:18. Continuing the judicial thought of 18:15-17: many Jews felt that the Jewish high court acted on the authority of God’s tribunal in heaven, in a sense ratifying its decrees (the verb tenses here probably indicate that the heavenly court has decided first). Those who judged cases on the basis of God’s *law accurately represented his will.

“Binding” and “loosing,” terms normally used for tying up or imprisoning versus freeing or releasing, provide a natural metaphor for condemning or acquitting in a court. As terms regularly used for rabbis’ legislative authority in interpreting Scripture, they could naturally apply to judicial situations as well.

Matt 18:19-20. The “two or three” must refer to the “two or three witnesses” of 18:16. These verses may refer to the prayer of execration given at a Jewish excommunication; or they could represent prayers for the repentance and consequent forgiveness of the excommunicated person (see 1 Jn 5:16). In either case, it is of interest to note that the witnesses in the Old Testament were to be the first to execute the judgment of the court (Deut 17:7); here they are the first to pray.

Later sources report that ten Jewish males was the minimum quorum to constitute a synagogue assembly, but also (probably reflecting a more widespread tradition) that God’s presence was with even two or three who met together to study his law (cf. Mishnah ʾAvot 3:2, 6; Mekilta Bahodesh 11). Jesus’ presence is thus presented here as identical with God’s (cf. also Mt 1:23; 28:20). (Indeed, one of the most common names for God among the later rabbis was “the Place,” i.e., the Omnipresent One.)

So according to him, they do refer to "prayer," but in the *specific context* of church discipline.

[Cow Poke]

Craig Keener, from the IVP Bible Background Commentary:

Matt 18:15. This procedure reflects standard Jewish custom; the *Dead Sea Scrolls, the rabbis and others demand that one begin with private reproof. Publicly shaming someone unnecessarily was considered sinful, and Jewish teachers stressed the importance of receiving reproof.

Matt 18:16. Deuteronomy 19:15 (cf. 17:6-7) was the standard text Jewish authorities cited for requiring two witnesses. (Later rabbis took this principle so far that one eyewitness was not sufficient even if the eyewitness caught the murderer with the bloody knife in hand.) A final warning was merciful (e.g., Deut 25:8). Strict judicial procedures are being followed at this point because a judicial action is about to take place; Jesus here agrees with the Jewish practice of private rebuke, witnesses and finally, if *repentance is not forthcoming, the judicial assembly (18:17).

Matt 18:17. A church by definition would function as an ancient *synagogue would, and ancient synagogues were not only assembly halls for prayer and study but community centers where discipline would be inflicted on an erring member of the community. (Both “synagogue” and “church” ultimately render the same Hebrew expression for God’s community.) This discipline could take a variety of forms, including public beating, but the most severe were several levels of dismissal from the community. After the most severe level of discipline the offending member would be treated as a pagan instead of as a Jew. Pagans and *tax gatherers alike—tax gatherers were seen as agents of a pagan government—were excluded from the religious life of the Jewish community. Giving a person a final warning before a court would take action (e.g., Deut 25:8) was an act of mercy.

Matt 18:18. Continuing the judicial thought of 18:15-17: many Jews felt that the Jewish high court acted on the authority of God’s tribunal in heaven, in a sense ratifying its decrees (the verb tenses here probably indicate that the heavenly court has decided first). Those who judged cases on the basis of God’s *law accurately represented his will.

“Binding” and “loosing,” terms normally used for tying up or imprisoning versus freeing or releasing, provide a natural metaphor for condemning or acquitting in a court. As terms regularly used for rabbis’ legislative authority in interpreting Scripture, they could naturally apply to judicial situations as well.

Matt 18:19-20. The “two or three” must refer to the “two or three witnesses” of 18:16. These verses may refer to the prayer of execration given at a Jewish excommunication; or they could represent prayers for the repentance and consequent forgiveness of the excommunicated person (see 1 Jn 5:16). In either case, it is of interest to note that the witnesses in the Old Testament were to be the first to execute the judgment of the court (Deut 17:7); here they are the first to pray.

Later sources report that ten Jewish males was the minimum quorum to constitute a synagogue assembly, but also (probably reflecting a more widespread tradition) that God’s presence was with even two or three who met together to study his law (cf. Mishnah ʾAvot 3:2, 6; Mekilta Bahodesh 11). Jesus’ presence is thus presented here as identical with God’s (cf. also Mt 1:23; 28:20). (Indeed, one of the most common names for God among the later rabbis was “the Place,” i.e., the Omnipresent One.)

So according to him, they do refer to "prayer," but in the *specific context* of church discipline.

Yes, and not as an excuse to forego corporate worship.

[oxmixmudd]

So, I decided to go back and see how all this got started, and here, I believe, is where it got started.... (I can always blame my brudder Rogue for starting a fight )

Rogue said...

And, you, Ox, used that verse to justify NOT being "in Church" - which is CLEARLY not its intent at all....

WoW! No - I used it to point out being 'in church' is not the same as being in a certain building at a certain time on Sunday. Nor is there any minimum population. Nor does it exclude things like phone calls or zoom meetings.

I actually agree with a whole bunch of what you said in the second paragraph. But Matt 18:20 is simply not intended as justification for that.

I'm not disagreeing with the fact it is used as support, encouragement, for those that are engaged in church discipline in that passage. I am disagreeing with the idea that is the ONLY context in which it applies or can be quoted. The truth of it applies broadly and in many contexts. It stands alone and is true in many contexts.