Announcement

Collapse

Civics 101 Guidelines

Want to argue about politics? Healthcare reform? Taxes? Governments? You've come to the right place!

Try to keep it civil though. The rules still apply here.
See more
See less

Pastor Defies State Orders...

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
    Yes I do CP. But the point would be to somehow claim I'm ignorant, right. Isn't that the subtext here?
    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
      They SPECIFICALLY refer to (and you can tell this because it's 'one paragraph') the discipline of the Church where Jesus assures them He will be there as they seek to restore unity.

      vs 18 begins "Truly I tell you", which reinforces vs 17.
      vs 19 begins "again, I tell you..." which is on the same point.
      vs 20 begins with "for", which is like "therefore", and means that we need to see what it's "there" for.

      "Here's how you handle discipline...."
      "2 or 3 witnesses are recognized as sufficient"
      "I am right there with those '2 or 3'.

      Young's Literal Translation:
      Scripture Verse: Matt 18

      15 `And if thy brother may sin against thee, go and show him his fault between thee and him alone, if he may hear thee, thou didst gain thy brother; 16 and if he may not hear, take with thee yet one or two, that by the mouth of two witnesses or three every word may stand. 17 `And if he may not hear them, say [it] to the assembly, and if also the assembly he may not hear, let him be to thee as the heathen man and the tax-gatherer. 18 `Verily I say to you, Whatever things ye may bind upon the earth shall be having been bound in the heavens, and whatever things ye may loose on the earth shall be having been loosed in the heavens. 19 `Again, I say to you, that, if two of you may agree on the earth concerning anything, whatever they may ask -- it shall be done to them from my Father who is in the heavens, 20 for where there are two or three gathered together -- to my name, there am I in the midst of them.'

      © Copyright Original Source


      It's very common for people to rip vs 20 out of the context of "the paragraph" of vs 15-20.
      CP - there is a transition from the narrow scope of discipline to the broader scope of Christ being with us when we gather together. That transition allows that verse to be applied to many different scopes, any of which involve the gathering of believers.

      Are you actually trying to say that when believers gather together to pray, or worship, or study scripture etc, even if its just one or two, Christ is NOT there in their midst? How is using that verse to raise that issue 'out of context'. Christ is always with us in these sorts of things. As I said, the passage moves from the specific application of discipline to the general principle that when we gather to do His will, He is there with us. Again - do you deny He is there with us as I used the verse?
      My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

      If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

      This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
        can you be honest about your attempts to impune.

        Here is what you said:

        Source: CP

        --- you DO realize that there were no chapter or verse references in the original Greek, yes?

        © Copyright Original Source



        That is a swipe at what I know. Can't you just be honest that was your point?
        My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

        If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

        This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

        Comment


        • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
          CP - there is a transition from the narrow scope of discipline to the broader scope of Christ being with us when we gather together. That transition allows that verse to be applied to many different scopes, any of which involve the gathering of believers.

          Are you actually trying to say that when believers gather together to pray, or worship, or study scripture etc, even if its just one or two, Christ is NOT there in their midst? How is using that verse to raise that issue 'out of context'. Christ is always with us in these sorts of things. As I said, the passage moves from the specific application of discipline to the general principle that when we gather to do His will, He is there with us. Again - do you deny He is there with us as I used the verse?
          Perhaps if you hadn't started this as a personal attack on moss....
          Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
          wow. You are out there. 18/19/20 are not about church discipline, they are a shift in topic, and are about the power of prayer.

          You are wrong. It is not a "shift in topic", it is a continuation of the same topic. All you're doing now is trying to wiggle your way out of that claim.
          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
            can you be honest about your attempts to impune.

            Here is what you said:

            Source: CP

            --- you DO realize that there were no chapter or verse references in the original Greek, yes?

            © Copyright Original Source



            That is a swipe at what I know. Can't you just be honest that was your point?
            I didn't know if you knew that or not, so I asked. Sheeeeesh..... why are you so freakin' thin skinned?
            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
              Perhaps if you hadn't started this as a personal attack on moss....
              You are wrong. It is not a "shift in topic", it is a continuation of the same topic. All you're doing now is trying to wiggle your way out of that claim.
              I believe oxmixmudd has shifted from the verses being "a transition about the power of prayer" to them being about "well, we COULD use them in that context if we wanted to, wah, wah, wah".


              Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                I didn't know if you knew that or not, so I asked. Sheeeeesh..... why are you so freakin' thin skinned?
                CP - not doing this with you today.
                My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                Comment


                • Originally posted by mossrose View Post
                  I believe oxmixmudd has shifted from the verses being "a transition about the power of prayer" to them being about "well, we COULD use them in that context if we wanted to, wah, wah, wah".
                  EGGzackly. He goofed up by attacking you, then he's trying to recover by, "well, it COULD mean --- do you deny that it COULD mean?".
                  The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                    CP - not doing this with you today.
                    Suit yourself. But you really need to get out of this persecution complex thing, or gross insecurity, or whatever it is that makes everything seem like an attack on your person.

                    A gentleman would start by apologizing to moss for declaring she's "out there" for seeing the verses in the context in which they were written.
                    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by mossrose View Post
                      I believe oxmixmudd has shifted from the verses being "a transition about the power of prayer" to them being about "well, we COULD use them in that context if we wanted to, wah, wah, wah".
                      No - I have not shifted mossy. This is odd at the very least for you and CP both to be playing this this way. That verse can clearly be applied as I used it. And I haven't changed my position, though your understanding of my position is still a bit off.

                      Those last three verses (18-20) are not ABOUT discipline. The are about the fact that Christ is with is in all the things we do in his name, even just a few of us - INCLUDING discipline. They exist there, tagged onto the discussion of discipline, as a reminder that when doing that hard thing that disipline is, Christ is there - as he ALWAYS is. But those last 3 verses stand as true alone and apart from that passage as they do included with it and supporting it. Which is why my use of vs 20 was completely appropriate, completely in context as it were.
                      Last edited by oxmixmudd; 08-13-2020, 04:50 PM.
                      My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                      If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                      This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                        No - I have not mossy. This is odd at the very least for you and CP both to be playing this this way. That verse can clearly be applied as I used it. And I haven't changed my position, though your understanding of my position still a bit off.

                        Those last three verses (18-20) are not ABOUT discipline. The are about the fact that Christ is with is in all the things we do in his name, even just a few of us - INCLUDING discipline. They exist there, tagged onto the discussion of discipline, as a reminder that when doing that hard thing that disipline is, Christ is there - as he ALWAYS is. But they stand as true alone and apart from that passage as the do included with it and supporting it.
                        Here is what you said...

                        Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                        wow. You are out there. 18/19/20 are not about church discipline, they are a shift in topic, and are about the power of prayer.
                        Those verses are part of the 'paragraph' about unity in the church - which is what the "church discipline" is all about. It's not about kicking anybody out, it's about restoring a brother, and Christ is saying he's 'in that'.
                        Can it be used on a broader scale that Christ is "with us"? Sure --- but your snarky comment that mossy is "out there" is just flat out wrong.
                        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                          Suit yourself. But you really need to get out of this persecution complex thing, or gross insecurity, or whatever it is that makes everything seem like an attack on your person.

                          A gentleman would start by apologizing to moss for declaring she's "out there" for seeing the verses in the context in which they were written.
                          Seeing it as only applying to discipline and inappropriate to be used in any other context is 'out there' and misunderstands the purpose of the verses themselves. But my use of the term 'out there' has to do with bewilderment at why and how anyone would attack the post she was attacking.

                          It was a plain, simple, and 100% Biblical encouragement to all of us that we can worship outside church walls as may well be required in this pandemic for some time and expect and know the Lord is there with is. I can't imagine how such a simple and peaceful encouragement to faith and trust in God through this time where most church doors are shuttered could have led to this end.
                          Last edited by oxmixmudd; 08-13-2020, 04:57 PM.
                          My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                          If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                          This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                            No - I have not shifted mossy. This is odd at the very least for you and CP both to be playing this this way. That verse can clearly be applied as I used it. And I haven't changed my position, though your understanding of my position is still a bit off.

                            Those last three verses (18-20) are not ABOUT discipline. The are about the fact that Christ is with is in all the things we do in his name, even just a few of us - INCLUDING discipline. They exist there, tagged onto the discussion of discipline, as a reminder that when doing that hard thing that disipline is, Christ is there - as he ALWAYS is. But those last 3 verses stand as true alone and apart from that passage as they do included with it and supporting it. Which is why my use of vs 20 was completely appropriate, completely in context as it were.
                            CP and I are not "playing" this any way. We are simply stating what scholars who have studied the Greek have expressed for centuries. That passage is about church discipline.

                            To claim that it means other things is to read into the white spaces, and you can't do that without adding to scripture, which we are directed not to do at the end of Revelation.

                            You can try to backpedal all you want, but it says what it says, clear as day.
                            Last edited by mossrose; 08-13-2020, 05:24 PM.


                            Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by mossrose View Post
                              I believe oxmixmudd has shifted from the verses being "a transition about the power of prayer" to them being about "well, we COULD use them in that context if we wanted to, wah, wah, wah".
                              I like how Tim Chaffey, author and founder of Midwest Apologetics, says it....

                              “First of all, Jesus said ‘where two or three are gathered’ in His name, so how could this apply to settings of four or more? Also, why would it take two or three believers to be gathered together for Jesus to be in their midst? Isn’t he already present in each and every individual believer? So even if one Christian prays, isn’t Jesus already there?”

                              It's one of those "comforting" verses taken out of context, often to justify small attendances at Bible studies, prayer meetings, Church services, etc.
                              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                                Seeing it as only applying to discipline and inappropriate to be used in any other context is 'out there' and misunderstands the purpose of the verses themselves.
                                Already dealt with that.

                                But my use of the term 'out there' has to do with bewilderment at why and how anyone would attack the post she was attacking.
                                Your use of the term "out there" is more of the hypocrisy of your personal attacking while making a big fuss when you PERCEIVE you are being attacked, even when you're not.

                                It was a plain, simple, and 100% Biblical encouragement to all of us that we can worship outside church walls as may well be required in this pandemic for some time and expect and know the Lord is there with is. I can't imagine how such a simple and peaceful encouragement to faith and trust in God through this time where most church doors are shuttered could have led to this end.
                                Dealt with that, too. There are plenty of other verses which can be legitimately used to show that Christ is with us without needing to rip one out of context.
                                The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                                Comment

                                Related Threads

                                Collapse

                                Topics Statistics Last Post
                                Started by little_monkey, Yesterday, 04:19 PM
                                16 responses
                                149 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post One Bad Pig  
                                Started by whag, 03-26-2024, 04:38 PM
                                53 responses
                                397 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Mountain Man  
                                Started by rogue06, 03-26-2024, 11:45 AM
                                25 responses
                                113 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post rogue06
                                by rogue06
                                 
                                Started by Hypatia_Alexandria, 03-26-2024, 09:21 AM
                                33 responses
                                197 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Roy
                                by Roy
                                 
                                Started by Hypatia_Alexandria, 03-26-2024, 08:34 AM
                                84 responses
                                369 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post JimL
                                by JimL
                                 
                                Working...
                                X