Originally posted by oxmixmudd
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostThey SPECIFICALLY refer to (and you can tell this because it's 'one paragraph') the discipline of the Church where Jesus assures them He will be there as they seek to restore unity.
vs 18 begins "Truly I tell you", which reinforces vs 17.
vs 19 begins "again, I tell you..." which is on the same point.
vs 20 begins with "for", which is like "therefore", and means that we need to see what it's "there" for.
"Here's how you handle discipline...."
"2 or 3 witnesses are recognized as sufficient"
"I am right there with those '2 or 3'.
Young's Literal Translation:
It's very common for people to rip vs 20 out of the context of "the paragraph" of vs 15-20.
Are you actually trying to say that when believers gather together to pray, or worship, or study scripture etc, even if its just one or two, Christ is NOT there in their midst? How is using that verse to raise that issue 'out of context'. Christ is always with us in these sorts of things. As I said, the passage moves from the specific application of discipline to the general principle that when we gather to do His will, He is there with us. Again - do you deny He is there with us as I used the verse?My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1
If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26
This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
Here is what you said:
That is a swipe at what I know. Can't you just be honest that was your point?My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1
If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26
This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19
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Originally posted by oxmixmudd View PostCP - there is a transition from the narrow scope of discipline to the broader scope of Christ being with us when we gather together. That transition allows that verse to be applied to many different scopes, any of which involve the gathering of believers.
Are you actually trying to say that when believers gather together to pray, or worship, or study scripture etc, even if its just one or two, Christ is NOT there in their midst? How is using that verse to raise that issue 'out of context'. Christ is always with us in these sorts of things. As I said, the passage moves from the specific application of discipline to the general principle that when we gather to do His will, He is there with us. Again - do you deny He is there with us as I used the verse?Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Postwow. You are out there. 18/19/20 are not about church discipline, they are a shift in topic, and are about the power of prayer.
You are wrong. It is not a "shift in topic", it is a continuation of the same topic. All you're doing now is trying to wiggle your way out of that claim.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Postcan you be honest about your attempts to impune.
Here is what you said:
That is a swipe at what I know. Can't you just be honest that was your point?The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostPerhaps if you hadn't started this as a personal attack on moss....
You are wrong. It is not a "shift in topic", it is a continuation of the same topic. All you're doing now is trying to wiggle your way out of that claim.
Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostI didn't know if you knew that or not, so I asked. Sheeeeesh..... why are you so freakin' thin skinned?My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1
If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26
This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19
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Originally posted by mossrose View PostI believe oxmixmudd has shifted from the verses being "a transition about the power of prayer" to them being about "well, we COULD use them in that context if we wanted to, wah, wah, wah".The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by oxmixmudd View PostCP - not doing this with you today.
A gentleman would start by apologizing to moss for declaring she's "out there" for seeing the verses in the context in which they were written.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by mossrose View PostI believe oxmixmudd has shifted from the verses being "a transition about the power of prayer" to them being about "well, we COULD use them in that context if we wanted to, wah, wah, wah".
Those last three verses (18-20) are not ABOUT discipline. The are about the fact that Christ is with is in all the things we do in his name, even just a few of us - INCLUDING discipline. They exist there, tagged onto the discussion of discipline, as a reminder that when doing that hard thing that disipline is, Christ is there - as he ALWAYS is. But those last 3 verses stand as true alone and apart from that passage as they do included with it and supporting it. Which is why my use of vs 20 was completely appropriate, completely in context as it were.Last edited by oxmixmudd; 08-13-2020, 04:50 PM.My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1
If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26
This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19
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Originally posted by oxmixmudd View PostNo - I have not mossy. This is odd at the very least for you and CP both to be playing this this way. That verse can clearly be applied as I used it. And I haven't changed my position, though your understanding of my position still a bit off.
Those last three verses (18-20) are not ABOUT discipline. The are about the fact that Christ is with is in all the things we do in his name, even just a few of us - INCLUDING discipline. They exist there, tagged onto the discussion of discipline, as a reminder that when doing that hard thing that disipline is, Christ is there - as he ALWAYS is. But they stand as true alone and apart from that passage as the do included with it and supporting it.
Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Postwow. You are out there. 18/19/20 are not about church discipline, they are a shift in topic, and are about the power of prayer.
Can it be used on a broader scale that Christ is "with us"? Sure --- but your snarky comment that mossy is "out there" is just flat out wrong.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostSuit yourself. But you really need to get out of this persecution complex thing, or gross insecurity, or whatever it is that makes everything seem like an attack on your person.
A gentleman would start by apologizing to moss for declaring she's "out there" for seeing the verses in the context in which they were written.
It was a plain, simple, and 100% Biblical encouragement to all of us that we can worship outside church walls as may well be required in this pandemic for some time and expect and know the Lord is there with is. I can't imagine how such a simple and peaceful encouragement to faith and trust in God through this time where most church doors are shuttered could have led to this end.Last edited by oxmixmudd; 08-13-2020, 04:57 PM.My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1
If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26
This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19
Comment
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Originally posted by oxmixmudd View PostNo - I have not shifted mossy. This is odd at the very least for you and CP both to be playing this this way. That verse can clearly be applied as I used it. And I haven't changed my position, though your understanding of my position is still a bit off.
Those last three verses (18-20) are not ABOUT discipline. The are about the fact that Christ is with is in all the things we do in his name, even just a few of us - INCLUDING discipline. They exist there, tagged onto the discussion of discipline, as a reminder that when doing that hard thing that disipline is, Christ is there - as he ALWAYS is. But those last 3 verses stand as true alone and apart from that passage as they do included with it and supporting it. Which is why my use of vs 20 was completely appropriate, completely in context as it were.
To claim that it means other things is to read into the white spaces, and you can't do that without adding to scripture, which we are directed not to do at the end of Revelation.
You can try to backpedal all you want, but it says what it says, clear as day.Last edited by mossrose; 08-13-2020, 05:24 PM.
Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.
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Originally posted by mossrose View PostI believe oxmixmudd has shifted from the verses being "a transition about the power of prayer" to them being about "well, we COULD use them in that context if we wanted to, wah, wah, wah".
“First of all, Jesus said ‘where two or three are gathered’ in His name, so how could this apply to settings of four or more? Also, why would it take two or three believers to be gathered together for Jesus to be in their midst? Isn’t he already present in each and every individual believer? So even if one Christian prays, isn’t Jesus already there?”
It's one of those "comforting" verses taken out of context, often to justify small attendances at Bible studies, prayer meetings, Church services, etc.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by oxmixmudd View PostSeeing it as only applying to discipline and inappropriate to be used in any other context is 'out there' and misunderstands the purpose of the verses themselves.
But my use of the term 'out there' has to do with bewilderment at why and how anyone would attack the post she was attacking.
It was a plain, simple, and 100% Biblical encouragement to all of us that we can worship outside church walls as may well be required in this pandemic for some time and expect and know the Lord is there with is. I can't imagine how such a simple and peaceful encouragement to faith and trust in God through this time where most church doors are shuttered could have led to this end.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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