Pastor Defies State Orders...

[oxmixmudd]

Yet protesters do this regularly - no masks, shoulder to shoulder yelling at everything and everybody. And it is allowed, and no one says boo...

Officials fear protests are ‘super-spreader’ events for coronavirus. Marchers say worth the risk

https://www.latimes.com/california/s...ests-la-crowds

seer - now we are getting into the area of just because someone else does something wrong doesn't make it ok for me to do something wrong.

There are legitimate fears related to the protests. But they can't be directly compared to indoor events like church services (or crowded gyms or bars) The local protest events I've been witness to respected the need for masks and social distancing. Further, outdoor events are indeed much less likely to spread the virus because the air is circulating far more than in a building and the virus just can't live as long in the heat and humidty, and especially during the daytime when the sun is shining (UV kills it very quickly)

The identified super-spreader events I know of are indoors with a lot of close contact between participants. So while the risk in the protest might be greater than the risk in your living room, it is less than the risk attending a church service where people are not wearing masks and they are not maintaining the social distance required.

[Whateverman]

Well teaching YEC can't be worse than this:

Math education prof says using '2+2=4' to show math's objectivity 'reeks of white supremacist patriarchy' — and gets dragged for it

A math education professor said that using the phrase "2+2=4" to demonstrate the objectivity and neutrality of mathematics "reeks of white supremacist patriarchy."

"The idea that math (or data) is culturally neutral or in any way objective is a MYTH," Laurie Rubel of Brooklyn College tweeted a week ago. "I'm ready to move on with that understanding. who's coming with me?"

https://www.theblaze.com/news/math-e...dragged-for-it

Teaching YEC is much worse than this, yes. Yes it is.

Tweeting something isn't the same as teaching it, and if you took the time to actually understand what Rubel was referring to (rather than getting a heaping spoonful of manufactured outrage from right-wing entertainment media), you'd see that she has a point. It might not be a point you agree with - and speaking for myself *I* think she's taking it to an extreme - but it's a valid point nonetheless.

That point doesn't even hold a candle to the kind of willful ignorance propagated by YECity.

[oxmixmudd]

...

Maybe the people attending church know the risks, are taking precautions and it's none of your business?

Actions that spread the virus are everybody's buisiness sparko. It is called being responsible.

I bet you would be one of the people telling the early church not to meet because they would be risking their lives if the Romans or Sanhedron caught them.

Not at all Sparko. You are not thinking clearly.

I thought about bringing up the issue you raise. Because there is a stark difference between attending a service where our own lives are at risk because external authorities would seek to punish us, and attending a church service when our attendance can cause others to become sick or die. In the first case, it is a matter of obeying God or men - and clearly we must chose to obey God. In the latter case, it is a matter of loving one's neighbor as one's self. If I care about other people, I am not going to engage in behavior that is known to put them at risk. So what we need to be focusing on is finding ways to assemble that do not put others at risk from the virus. And most churches have done that quite well using streaming services and creative ways to meet safely without providing an opportunity for the virus to spread.

[seer]

Teaching YEC is much worse than this, yes. Yes it is.

Tweeting something isn't the same as teaching it, and if you took the time to actually understand what Rubel was referring to (rather than getting a heaping spoonful of manufactured outrage from right-wing entertainment media), you'd see that she has a point. It might not be a point you agree with - and speaking for myself *I* think she's taking it to an extreme - but it's a valid point nonetheless.

That point doesn't even hold a candle to the kind of willful ignorance propagated by YECity.

So you agree that the objectivity and neutrality of mathematics reeks of white supremacist patriarchy? That is a valid point? And as far as teaching YEC as long as it does not interfere with the message of salvation I see no big deal. I was YEC in the 90s, slowly came to old earth creationism.

[oxmixmudd]

The early church stood out for staying and caring for the sick during epidemics, while pagans fled to the countryside.

Yes they did. And you are conflating issues. Many Christians are on the front lines caring for the sick. And many of them would be the first to condemn the few churches that are meeting together foolishly ignoring the need to wear masks and social distance. The early church didn't know about germs and viruses OBP. And they acted out of compassion for the sick at the risk of their lives. That would be a sort of humble, noble character that is far too lacking these days.

And it is very different from saying the virus is all a sham and we're going to ignore all that medical science has to teach us about it in our arrogance under the pretense of 'obeying God'.

[Sparko]

Actions that spread the virus are everybody's buisiness sparko. It is called being responsible.



Not at all Sparko. You are not thinking clearly.

I thought about bringing up the issue you raise. Because there is a stark difference between attending a service where our own lives are at risk because external authorities would seek to punish us, and attending a church service when our attendance can cause others to become sick or die. In the first case, it is a matter of obeying God or men - and clearly we must chose to obey God. In the latter case, it is a matter of loving one's neighbor as one's self. If I care about other people, I am not going to engage in behavior that is known to put them at risk. So what we need to be focusing on is finding ways to assemble that do not put others at risk from the virus. And most churches have done that quite well using streaming services and creative ways to meet safely without providing an opportunity for the virus to spread.

We are not merely talking about personal responsibility, but the hypocritical orders given out by the government which allows large public protests and funerals but wants to make church gatherings illegal, even when they are following precautions.

And mossy said that the church in question was following safety rules in their gatherings. So your objection is nullified.

[oxmixmudd]

So you agree that the objectivity and neutrality of mathematics reeks of white supremacist patriarchy? That is a valid point? And as far as teaching YEC as long as it does not interfere with the message of salvation I see no big deal. I was YEC in the 90s, slowly came to old earth creationism.

Why are you escalating this into the stratosphere of absurdity rather than just dealing with the conflict between ignorance and responsibility that should be driving a discussion about churches that ignore clear medical realities in ignorance and put others lives at risk so they can meet together like 'they want to'.

[JimL]

This is the problem Jim, California is allowing protests where thousands march shoulder to shoulder yell and scream and more often than not without masks. But they shut down churches - does that sound right to you?

What you are arguing is that there should be no government action taken at all, that all large organized gatherings of people should be allowed regardless of the consequences. If christians truly cared about a ban on organized gatherings then they could go out, i.e outside where it is much safer, and protest against the government as well, but they don't. I agree it's a complicated matter and a bit of a contradiction but if your argument is that the government should ignore the problem altogether, or that the government should be able to ban even protests then you're asking for complete authoritarianism. Protests against the government is a different matter than the temporary ban on organized gatherings that have nothing to do with protesting the government.

[oxmixmudd]

We are not merely talking about personal responsibility, but the hypocritical orders given out by the government which allows large public protests and funerals but wants to make church gatherings illegal, even when they are following precautions.

And mossy said that the church in question was following safety rules in their gatherings. So your objection is nullified.

The MacArthur church was NOT following the safety rules, and I posted an article from ChristianityToday that highlighted that fact.

The rules are against large indoor gatherings that can't help but foster spread of the virus. The protests are not large indoor gatherings and it is unknown just how conducive they are to spread of the virus.

So the element of hypocrisy is simply not as clear as you imply. They are not the same type of event. And in more ways than just whether or not the event happens indoors.

[Sparko]

The MacArthur church was NOT following the safety rules, and I posted an article from ChristianityToday that highlighted that fact.

The rules are against large indoor gatherings that can't help but foster spread of the virus. The protests are not large indoor gatherings and it is unknown just how conducive they are to spread of the virus.

So the element of hypocrisy is simply not as clear as you imply. They are not the same type of event. And in more ways than just whether or not the event happens indoors.

They are following the rules. social distancing, masks.

but as I pointed out the funerals we have watched on TV were NOT. There were people sitting shoulder to shoulder, some with no masks. Yet they were televised for hours and nobody tried to make them stop. There is a double-standard here and you know it.

And outdoor events as packed as those riots and protests were are just as likely to spread the virus as any indoor event. You can tell just by watching how the smoke and tear gas hangs around in the air when used. Their breath would do the same.

[seer]

Why are you escalating this into the stratosphere of absurdity rather than just dealing with the conflict between ignorance and responsibility that should be driving a discussion about churches that ignore clear medical realities in ignorance and put others lives at risk so they can meet together like 'they want to'.

Hey I didn't bring up the YEC thing.

[mossrose]

We are not merely talking about personal responsibility, but the hypocritical orders given out by the government which allows large public protests and funerals but wants to make church gatherings illegal, even when they are following precautions.

And mossy said that the church in question was following safety rules in their gatherings. So your objection is nullified.

Just to clarify, GCC is not forcing people to come, they are not forcing social distancing, but they have an open tent outside with 1000 seats for people who wish to social distance, they are not telling people not to social distance, in fact the opposite. They are not telling people not to wear masks, neither are they telling people to wear masks.

They do not have the usual 100-ish voice choir, nor their usual full orchestra. They have a small ensemble on stage, spaced out quite well. That has been their pattern since March. They have not held communion, yet.

So, they are following the guidelines, but allowing the congregants to have a choice in how they themselves meet.

[mossrose]

They are following the rules. social distancing, masks.

but as I pointed out the funerals we have watched on TV were NOT. There were people sitting shoulder to shoulder, some with no masks. Yet they were televised for hours and nobody tried to make them stop. There is a double-standard here and you know it.

And outdoor events as packed as those riots and protests were are just as likely to spread the virus as any indoor event. You can tell just by watching how the smoke and tear gas hangs around in the air when used. Their breath would do the same.

Sparky, please note my reply to your previous post.

I would like these folk here who want all services outside to tell those of us who live in central Alberta how comfy that is going to be come January.

Or the folks who live in CA, AZ, etc., who are in high heat areas this time of year. Sure! Meet outside! Get hypothermia in the cold and heat stroke in the summer!

[mossrose]

The MacArthur church was NOT following the safety rules, and I posted an article from ChristianityToday that highlighted that fact.

The rules are against large indoor gatherings that can't help but foster spread of the virus. The protests are not large indoor gatherings and it is unknown just how conducive they are to spread of the virus.

So the element of hypocrisy is simply not as clear as you imply. They are not the same type of event. And in more ways than just whether or not the event happens indoors.

Are you attending church right now? How does your church do church? Outside? Limited seating? Everybody in masks 2 meters apart?

If you aren't attending church at all, why not?

[oxmixmudd]

They are following the rules. social distancing, masks.

The 'they' I'm refering to is MacArthur's Church highlighted here:

https://www.christianitytoday.com/ne...eg-laurie.html

Source: above

Source: above
... On Sunday, most attendees were not wearing masks, social distancing, or avoiding contact, as MacArthur told Carlson, they “didn’t buy the narrative.”

The congregation sang “We Gather Together,” ...

© Copyright Original Source

but as I pointed out the funerals we have watched on TV were NOT. There were people sitting shoulder to shoulder, some with no masks. Yet they were televised for hours and nobody tried to make them stop. There is a double-standard here and you know it.

Many/most (I've not tried to find a pan of the entire congregation) had on masks, but yes, there is a potential double standard there in terms of letting that slide. They were a one time event, I was surprised they did not take greater precautions, but it was a one time event, not a regular gathering across the entire state. There is a difference.

And outdoor events as packed as those riots and protests were are just as likely to spread the virus as any indoor event.

No - they aren't. Indoor events have dry cool air that is not moving very much. And - again - many/most of the protests involved a fairly high percentage of mask wearing, wereas the churches tend to be not wearing masks at all, because they are protesting not merely a restriction on meeting, but the entire idea a restriction is necessary - the idea they need to protect against the spread of the virus. See above: "they didn't buy the narrative".

You can tell just by watching how the smoke and tear gas hangs around in the air when used. Their breath would do the same.

No you can't Sparko. You'd need to compare it to how it hangs around in an indoor space. It would generally be worse inside. Airflow outside is almost always better than inside, or have you not ever read the directions on a volatile wood stain product? Or - why do you suppose it is not OK to run your generator in your garage, even with the garage door open, but put it in your driveway and it's just fine. Or that cooking grill on your deck. etc. etc.