Jude 1:9

[KingsGambit]

[mossrose]

Here is a commentary about it. Yes, I know it John MacArthur and that nobody but MelMak and I like him, but it's pretty good all the same.

https://www.gty.org/library/bibleqna...gelic-conflict



It continues past what I've quoted here.

Please remember to read the verse in context with the verses before and afterwards. It's important to do so.

[Cow Poke]

I always think about those "spiritual" people who boast about rebuking Satan in Jesus' name....

To me, it's kinda like - I don't have diplomatic relations with Satan. Just like Germany did not have diplomatic relations with the US in either Great War.

I don't speak to Satan, I don't listen to him, and if the powerful arch angel Michael didn't even dispute with him, who am I to... I let the Lord handle that.

(And there's some background here from the non-canonical book of Enoch, I think)

[Thoughtful Monk]

Similar to what Mossy says, I think the key word in the passage is condemn. Michael doesn't take God's right of judgment to himself. He leaves final judgment to God.

I think on the whole, this is what Paul follows. He does call out people for wrong behavior but doesn't seem to pass a final judgement on them. I try to practice by not declaring someone not a Christian. It's all too common to do and I think it's wrong.

I suggest a couple related verses to this are Romans 14:4 "Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To their own master, servants stand of fall. And they will stand, for the Lord is able to make them stand." and John 21:22 Jesus answered, "If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you? You must follow me."

[NorrinRadd]

[Sparko]

What I want to know is why was Satan disputing Michael about Moses's body?

[Cow Poke]

What I want to know is why was Satan disputing Michael about Moses's body?

Supposedly because God took Moses and buried him on a mountain, location unknown to the people, or the people would worship at his grave.
According to (I think it was the book of Enoch - or was it "The Assumption of Moses") Satan wanted the bones to keep him from being resurrected because Moses was a murderer (or something like that).
Origen had mentioned "The Assumption of Moses" in the third century.
Jude also mentions Cain, who killed his brother, along with Balaam's error and Korah's rebellion - all four of these were from the Pentateuch.

[KingsGambit]

-- This is one of many passages that bother me, because it highlights the inconsistencies and ambiguities in Scripture. Pretty clearly this passage teaches that we are to reverent toward angelic beings who serve God, and at least respectful toward even rebellious angelic beings. So, did Jesus give His followers "authority" to stomp on serpents and scorpions, and "over ALL the power of the enemy," or did He not? Are we seated with Christ in the heavenly seat that is FAR above ALL other rule, authority, power, and dominion (Eph. 2:6 with 1:20-22), or are we not? Are the angels servants on our behalf (Heb. 1:13-14), or are they not? How much respect must we show when we "resist" the devil (Jas. 4:7)?

This does raise some questions that I've never considered before..

[Cow Poke]

-- This is one of many passages that bother me, because it highlights the inconsistencies and ambiguities in Scripture. Pretty clearly this passage teaches that we are to reverent toward angelic beings who serve God, and at least respectful toward even rebellious angelic beings.

Can you elaborate on that? I'm not seeing that way at all.

So, did Jesus give His followers "authority" to stomp on serpents and scorpions, and "over ALL the power of the enemy," or did He not? Are we seated with Christ in the heavenly seat that is FAR above ALL other rule, authority, power, and dominion (Eph. 2:6 with 1:20-22), or are we not? Are the angels servants on our behalf (Heb. 1:13-14), or are they not? How much respect must we show when we "resist" the devil (Jas. 4:7)?

I'm not following this at all.

[Thoughtful Monk]

Can you elaborate on that? I'm not seeing that way at all.

-- This is one of many passages that bother me, because it highlights the inconsistencies and ambiguities in Scripture. Pretty clearly this passage teaches that we are to reverent toward angelic beings who serve God, and at least respectful toward even rebellious angelic beings. So, did Jesus give His followers "authority" to stomp on serpents and scorpions, and "over ALL the power of the enemy," or did He not? Are we seated with Christ in the heavenly seat that is FAR above ALL other rule, authority, power, and dominion (Eph. 2:6 with 1:20-22), or are we not? Are the angels servants on our behalf (Heb. 1:13-14), or are they not? How much respect must we show when we "resist" the devil (Jas. 4:7)?

I'm not following this at all.

Let me try to elaborate. I went to a church for awhile we some of the people practiced this.

I think this is a misapplication of the passage which describes us as being seating in heavenly places with Christ. I think some people believe because we are positionally seated with Christ, we have the power of Christ. This might also come from the Holy Spirit dwelling within us. I'm not sure what power and authority I will have in eternity. I think they are premature on claiming future power as being theirs now. And frankly, they may not even have it in eternity.

Also I don't think they realize the power and dread they would feel if they really encountered a demon or Satan himself. They would .

This may be more show than substance. However I will give them credit for recognizing that Satan and his demons are working in the world.

[NorrinRadd]

Let me try to elaborate. I went to a church for awhile we some of the people practiced this.

I think this is a misapplication of the passage which describes us as being seating in heavenly places with Christ. I think some people believe because we are positionally seated with Christ, we have the power of Christ. This might also come from the Holy Spirit dwelling within us. I'm not sure what power and authority I will have in eternity. I think they are premature on claiming future power as being theirs now. And frankly, they may not even have it in eternity.

Also I don't think they realize the power and dread they would feel if they really encountered a demon or Satan himself. They would .

This may be more show than substance. However I will give them credit for recognizing that Satan and his demons are working in the world.

But this is not helpful. I am literate enough to realize that the "literalest" reading is usually NOT the best reading, but that fact does not help me to understand how we ARE to understand passages such as the ones in Eph., or, say, 1 John 4:17.

The disciples were given authority over "all" the power of the enemy way back in Luke 9. At Pentecost, the Spirit came upon those gathered, as the first example of an experience promised to all believers. We Pentecostals see clear parallels between the Spirit coming upon Jesus in Luke 4, and on the Church in Acts 2. We generally understand that all of Jesus's ministry was done in the power of the Spirit. We understand that we are not Deity, but we see many parallels with Christ in terms of being born of God, born of the Spirit, heirs of God, fellow-heirs with Christ, brothers and sisters of Jesus. We understand we don't yet have the full inheritance, only the down-payment and first-fruits; but while on earth, apart from the brief Transfiguration, even Jesus Himself was not in His glorified immortal form.

And even leaving all that aside, it's not immediately obvious how we "resist" the devil in Jas. 4, and "struggle" against him in Eph. 6, and yet treat him with respect.

[NorrinRadd]

I'll also note that Luther was decidedly less than respectful, claiming, "I am of a different mind ten times in the course of a day. But I resist the devil, and often it is with a fart that I chase him away." From here.

[KingsGambit]

Perhaps Jesus's statement referred specifically to the original disciplines and only them. I wonder if anybody takes that position.

[NorrinRadd]

Perhaps Jesus's statement referred specifically to the original disciplines and only them. I wonder if anybody takes that position.

Yes, and it's not uncommon to interpret many of the promises and instructions in the various forms of the Great Commission and Pentecost accounts as applying only to the Apostles. I don't think that's tenable.

[Thoughtful Monk]

But this is not helpful. I am literate enough to realize that the "literalest" reading is usually NOT the best reading, but that fact does not help me to understand how we ARE to understand passages such as the ones in Eph., or, say, 1 John 4:17.

The disciples were given authority over "all" the power of the enemy way back in Luke 9. At Pentecost, the Spirit came upon those gathered, as the first example of an experience promised to all believers. We Pentecostals see clear parallels between the Spirit coming upon Jesus in Luke 4, and on the Church in Acts 2. We generally understand that all of Jesus's ministry was done in the power of the Spirit. We understand that we are not Deity, but we see many parallels with Christ in terms of being born of God, born of the Spirit, heirs of God, fellow-heirs with Christ, brothers and sisters of Jesus. We understand we don't yet have the full inheritance, only the down-payment and first-fruits; but while on earth, apart from the brief Transfiguration, even Jesus Himself was not in His glorified immortal form.

And even leaving all that aside, it's not immediately obvious how we "resist" the devil in Jas. 4, and "struggle" against him in Eph. 6, and yet treat him with respect.

Thanks responding. I understand better what you are saying.

Taking the Jude passage, it is a stretch to say Michael is treating him with respect. I think it may be more Michael is avoiding being accused of being a false witness or taking God's right of judgment onto himself. In other words, Michael is avoiding committing a sin rather than having respect for Satan.

I'm not sure there is any Biblical passage that says we have treat Satan with respect in the sense of giving him courteous or preserving his dignity. Maybe it's respect in the sense that Satan has a lot of power and if we're not sheltered in God, we're in deep trouble because our power in ourselves is woefully insufficient to resist him.