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Why should I believe in Jesus and the NT?

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  • #76
    Thanks Soy,

    I understand your position and I reject it for reasons provided. Your push back has not been anything I haven't come across before.

    Oh, and the site you linked to denies the deity of Christ. This should highlight the spirit behind much of your theology:

    http://www.godward.org/biblical%20mo.../2010%20OG.htm

    "I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel" (Gal. 1:6).

    Goodbye.
    Last edited by Scrawly; 10-24-2014, 02:06 AM.

    Comment


    • #77
      I understand your position and I reject it for reasons provided. Your push back has not been anything I haven't come across before.
      All you seem to do quote verses without showing that you have a good grasp of what they are saying. When I respond by explaining them to you, you just ignore my response or handwave it. I'll grant that it's not anything you haven't come across before, but it's not something that you've interacted with either.

      Oh, and the site you linked to denies the deity of Christ. This should highlight the spirit behind much of your theology:
      Talk about a genetic fallacy. The article I linked is the only article from that site that I've read and it doesn't follow that because one article is wrong about denying the deity of Jesus that therefore every other article about any other topic is wrong, especially when this article is written by a different author. All you've done is blindly dismiss excellent research and methodology in order to again avoid any interaction.

      "I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel" (Gal. 1:6).
      For the sarcastically impaired the following is said in jest

      Yes, the Greek word "telos" can be translated as either "end" or "goal", but because I linked to an article that makes a strong case that it should be "goal" I have turned away to a different Gospel.

      "Faith is nothing less than the will to keep one's mind fixed precisely on what reason has discovered to it." - Edward Feser

      Comment


      • #78
        Perhaps this site:

        http://www.oocities.org/heartland/pi...55/endlaw.html

        or this site:

        http://graceandknowledge.faithweb.com/telos.html

        will have other articles that are more to you liking by which you can judge the content of this article.
        "Faith is nothing less than the will to keep one's mind fixed precisely on what reason has discovered to it." - Edward Feser

        Comment


        • #79
          Soy,

          I have been responding to your posts from work, so I apologize if they are not as substantial as you would like. My job requires multi-tasking so my concentration and ability to thoroughly respond is hampered quite a bit. I don't have much time for these discussions at the moment so I did hesitate to post in this thread and start up a similar discussion with you, because you have continued on your course despite the attempts of others here on tweb to reconsider your theology. After all that was said to you from others, I knew I wasn't going to change your mind, but I said what I said and I am content with that.

          PS: The articles you linked to are written by Doug Ward. Doug Ward earned a B.A., M.S., and Ph.D. in mathematics. Yes, I know that doesn't invalidate his research, but I would love for you to move toward Biblical scholars such as Douglas Moo and D.A Carson. I think you would really benefit and be blessed from their research.

          PPS: I actually agree that telos can be translated as goal. I understand how Christ is the goal of the law, and all the New Covenant implications that follow.

          PPPS: Your brand of Hebrew Roots theology is really nothing new. I find that its mostly repackaged theology from Seventh Day Adventism, Herbert W. Armstrong, ect. Though I do appreciate the work and theology of some Messianic scholars such as Dr. Michael Brown - who would likewise disagree with your precarious position.

          Later man.

          Comment


          • #80
            Oh Soy, I forgot to get clarification when you stated:

            "Whenever Paul used the phrase “works of the law” the Dead Sea Scrolls.."

            Can you provide your source here?

            Thanks!

            Comment


            • #81
              Originally posted by Soyeong View Post
              Colossians were being criticized by those who were teaching asceticism and and severity to the body for eating, drinking, and keeping festivals.
              I can see how that would make sense, and with Galatians as well, so I'll put those aside for now.

              Originally posted by Soyeong View Post
              Acts 15:21 For from ancient generations Moses has had in every city those who proclaim him, for he is read every Sabbath in the synagogues.”

              Furthermore, it doesn't make any sense for Paul to warn them not to be judged for not keeping the sabbath days if they were expect to learn about Moses every Sabbath in the synagogues.
              I'm still not sure if this means: let's focus on teaching Gentiles about Jesus now and they...

              1. ...should learn and observe the rest of moral/ceremonial Torah later on, remaining Gentiles without circumcision.

              or

              2. ...can convert to be Jews observing ceremonial/moral Torah later on if they want, or remain Gentiles and just worry about observing moral Torah.

              Was it your position that while salvation won't necessarily be lost for otherwise righteous Gentiles not observing ceremonial, some rewards for good works in the World to Come may be lost? I can't remember.

              Comment


              • #82
                1. ...should learn and observe the rest of moral/ceremonial Torah later on, remaining Gentiles without circumcision.
                Jews didn't make a distinction between moral and ceremonial laws. If the moral law governs only man's relationship with his fellow man, and not man's relationship with God, then the first four of the Ten Commandments, including the prohibition of idolatry, cannot be considered part of the moral law. They deal with man's relationship with God. If, on the other hand, man's relationship with God is considered part of the moral law, then all of the Torah is moral law, because all of Torah is commanded by God and is part of man's relationship with Him.

                Acts 15:19-21 Therefore my judgment is that we should not trouble those of the Gentiles who turn to God, 20 but should write to them to abstain from the things polluted by idols, and from sexual immorality, and from what has been strangled, and from blood. 21 For from ancient generations Moses has had in every city those who proclaim him, for he is read every Sabbath in the synagogues.”

                If you compare the Noahide laws to Acts 15:20, the commands against murder and blasphemy are missing, and it has one command is added that's not in the Noahide law, which I think indicates that it was specific list for a specific purpose, rather than saying that Gentiles had to just obey Noahide laws. Verse 19 says they're not trying to hinder new Gentiles who are coming to God, so what Paul is doing is giving them a set of minimal laws that would cause Gentiles to make a clean break from paganism and enable them to have fellowship meals with Jews. This would give them time to learn to keep the rest of the laws in the Torah from hearing Moses preached every Sabbath. I think the implication is there that Gentiles were already keeping the Sabbath and that it was expected that they would be continuing to do so.

                If you were joining a new religion, one of the first things you would be interested in learning is what rules of conduct you were expected to follow so that you could follow that god's commands and so you wouldn't accidentally offend other members of that religion. They wouldn't want to overburden you with a bunch of laws, but as time progressed, you would be taught more about how to follow that religion. We also have minimum expectations for new converts to Christianity.

                Various rabbis or Jewish sects, such as the Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes, or Zealots all had traditions/interpretations/works of the law for the way the Torah should be followed. The Jews from Judea, likely from the school of Shammai, were saying that Gentiles needed to becomes Jews and keep the the Torah and the oral laws in the way that they kept them in order to be saved.

                MMT "Now, we have written to you some of the works of the Law, those which we determined would be beneficial for you and your people, because we have seen that you possess insight and knowledge of the Law. Understand all these things and beseech Him to set your counsel straight and so keep you away from evil thoughts and the counsel of Belial. Then you shall rejoice at the end time when you find the essence of our words to be true. And it will be reckoned to you as righteousness, in that you have done what is right and good before Him, to your own benefit and to that of Israel."

                It's not known for sure who the counsel of Belial are, but I've seen it argued that they are most likely the Pharisees. In any case, they were teaching that their works of the law were the way they taught how to follow the Torah and not how some other group taught, and that following them would be reckoned to them as righteousness, not through faith, but through works. This is the sort of mentality that Paul is up against in Acts 15, so the chapter isn't even about whether or not Gentiles should obey God's instructions.

                2. ...can convert to be Jews observing ceremonial/moral Torah later on if they want, or remain Gentiles and just worry about observing moral Torah.
                Paul actually thought that Gentiles should remain as they are and that their circumcision would be of the heart, but that was done through keeping the law:

                Romans 2:25-26 For circumcision indeed is of value if you obey the law, but if you break the law, your circumcision becomes uncircumcision. 26 So, if a man who is uncircumcised keeps the precepts of the law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded[b] as circumcision?

                Was it your position that while salvation won't necessarily be lost for otherwise righteous Gentiles not observing ceremonial, some rewards for good works in the World to Come may be lost? I can't remember.
                Nothing of what I've said about keeping the Torah is in regard to the mainstream understanding of salvation being by grace through faith or justification being by faith.

                Matthew 5:19 Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

                From this I gather that they will be called least on the kingdom of heaven, but that they will still be in it. The issue is that there will be two judgments, one in regard to salvation, which is according to whether we've placed our faith in Jesus, and one in regard greatness in the kingdom of heaven, which is according what we have done.

                2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.

                Basically, we can be great at keeping the law through our own effort, but if we sin once, then we are found guilty and utterly bankrupt, but if we have placed our faith in Christ, then our debt has been paid, and all that we have left to be judged on are the good works that we've done for Christ. At this point, our goal is to have Jesus say something along the lines of, "Well done good and faithful servant! Come enter into my rest."
                Last edited by Soyeong; 10-28-2014, 02:17 AM.
                "Faith is nothing less than the will to keep one's mind fixed precisely on what reason has discovered to it." - Edward Feser

                Comment


                • #83
                  Originally posted by Soyeong View Post
                  Jews didn't make a distinction between moral and ceremonial laws. If the moral law governs only man's relationship with his fellow man, and not man's relationship with God, then the first four of the Ten Commandments, including the prohibition of idolatry, cannot be considered part of the moral law. They deal with man's relationship with God. If, on the other hand, man's relationship with God is considered part of the moral law, then all of the Torah is moral law, because all of Torah is commanded by God and is part of man's relationship with Him.
                  Focusing just on this for a moment, to clarify:

                  "Rabbis distinguish between mishpaṭim, moral laws—which are dictated by reason and common sense, such as laws concerning justice, incestuous marriages, and the like—and ḥuḳḳim, those divine statutes to which the "Yeẓer ha-Ra'" (the evil inclination) and the heathen object, such as the prohibition of pork or of wearing garments woven of wool and linen (Sifra, Aḥare Mot, xiii. on Lev. xviii. 5; Yoma 67b)."

                  http://jewishencyclopedia.com/articl...ceremonial-law

                  So for example, moral laws are things Jesus spent a lot of time talking about: not being adulterous to your wives or God with idols, not hating, stealing, murdering, etc. Basically in how you treat and love God and each other.

                  Whereas he didn't talk much about the right way to keep festivals, make sacrifices, purify, etc. For example if you accidentally eat some pork with your beef, it's not going to really hurt anyone like violating moral laws would do. That's still not to say Jews are to forsake observance of these, they are as important for Jews as moral laws.

                  But where Gentiles are concerned, circumcision would be a ceremonial law, and by extension, eating Passover is forbidden for the uncircumcised.

                  So for me something still doesn't add up that Paul would say to Gentiles, you can abide in uncircumcision and not eat the Passover ignoring those ceremonial laws, but you need to observe all the other ceremonial laws and make sure not to wear cotton and linen, eat kosher, etc.

                  To me it would make more sense to say, convert by circumcision and observe all applicable Torah moral and ceremonial. Or say, abide in uncircumcision and you aren't obligated to serve other ceremonial either.

                  Is there a reason you think he would excuse two of circumcision and eating Passover but not the others?

                  I haven't gotten into the judicial law yet.

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    The Kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking ...
                    βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                    ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                    אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Originally posted by JohnnyP View Post
                      The Haaretz headline used a small "g" but the person it quoted saying Rebbe is physical and also God used a big "G" -- it's there in the article did you read it? That view is almost exactly like the Christian view of Jesus physical and also God.
                      I have read the article and other sources concerning the claims of Haaretz, this is false, no such claim is ever made. Please cite to support this foolishness.



                      As I stated Trinity is simply understanding another person of God in addition to a parallel masculine Father God and feminine Shekinah Spirit in Judaism. If the Christian 3-Person God is polytheistic so is Judaism's 2-Person God.
                      There is no such two person big 'G' god in Jewish tradition, scripture, nor theology, unless you consider the Canaanite polytheism of the Book of Psalms legitimate. Then your going to present more problems.
                      Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                      Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                      But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                      go with the flow the river knows . . .

                      Frank

                      I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                        I have read the article and other sources concerning the claims of Haaretz, this is false, no such claim is ever made. Please cite to support this foolishness.
                        I already cited it, you replied to it, unless you're saying Haaretz just made the quote up:
                        Originally posted by JohnnyP View Post
                        "The Rebbe is the conjunction of God and human. The Rebbe is God, but he is also physical."

                        http://www.haaretz.com/the-lubavitch...2F8B1CF52F1D7F

                        Another source:
                        "The Rebbe progressed in the eyes of ONE FACTION WITHIN THE MOVEMENT [emphasis added] from being a navi to being the most probable candidate for Moshiach, to being 'bechezkas' Moshiach, to being Melech HaMoshiach, to being a dead Moshiach who has not died, to being 'omniscient', 'omnipotent' and being 'the Essence and Being [of G-d] enclothed in a body!' (2)

                        "More recently, a full-page ad featured in The New York Times advised readers: 'The Rebbe, no longer bound by physical limitations, is accessible to all of us, everywhere. Anyone, however great or humble, can turn to him with their innermost thoughts and deepest prayers. There are no barriers. There is no need to make pilgrimage or stand on line to receive his blessing.' (3)

                        -Rabbi Keller/Identifying Chabad

                        With a couple of alterations, read this and see if anything here sounds like our Christian Jesus being the same as God:
                        "Whatever G-d does, it is also within the capacity of (him) to do."

                        It is put in the strongest possible terms: “He alters G-d’ s will because he has become one unity with Him, blessed be He.”

                        ...is gifted with Ruah haKodesh (the Holy Spirit), and is empowered with remarkable supernatural gifts. He is capable of reading the thoughts of others, and can at a glance observe happenings all over the world and foretell the future.

                        He possessed the power to make himself invisible, to walk on water, to read people’s thoughts, to understand the speech of birds and animals, and to determine a man’s sin by taking his pulse.

                        He was depicted as curing the ill, resurrecting the dead, communicating with the dead, exorcising demons, and combating Satan.

                        ...was able to bring about the death of the wicked, and to preserve the righteous by triumphing over the Angel of Death. He was able to annul severe decrees meted out to the dead, and redeem and elevate souls into heaven.

                        Hasidism and the Rebbe/Tzaddik: The Power and Peril of Charismatic Leadership

                        In reality it's about Tzadikim and the Baal Shem Tov, not Jesus.

                        Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                        There is no such two person big 'G' god in Jewish tradition, scripture, nor theology, unless you consider the Canaanite polytheism of the Book of Psalms legitimate. Then your going to present more problems.
                        Well that's kind of the standard cookie-cutter position usually presented by Jews who oppose Christianity, of course not wanting to admit any Jewish beliefs on Sephirot emanations from God representing father/mother/son/daughter relationships therein, far more involved than the Christian Trinity Father/Son/Spirit concept.

                        Given the comparisons of Tzadikim to God with God's power, and the complex nature of Kabbalah involving personifications of God, it's pointless to argue that no Jews ever saw man as God, or that nothing like the Christian Trinity exists in Judaism. It does.

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Originally posted by JohnnyP View Post
                          mitzi: For example Jewish Christian martyrs could also be seen as Suffering Servants along with Jesus, trying to "heal" by carrying the Gospel to them. I don't see that it can't refer to more than one Jew and also Messiah.
                          Yes and No. If you read the passage out of Esdras - Abraham prayed for the people of Sodom, and Moses for our ancestors who sinned in the desert, 107 and Joshua after him for Israel in the days of Achan, 108 and Samuel in the days of Saul, and David for the plague, and Solomon for those at the dedication, 109 and Elijah for those who received the rain, and for the one who was dead, that he might live, 110 and Hezekiah for the people in the days of Sennacherib, and many others prayed for many? 111 So if now, when corruption has increased and unrighteousness has multiplied, the righteous have prayed for the ungodly, why will it not be so then as well?”



                          The verse above is telling us that the "great prophets" prayed for the unrighteous soul ("Prayed" as in the verse 9"His soul mourns for him" (Job 14:22) - the prophets had prayed for those who were lost - or dead, as in to revive the souls) - as many others have. Read - Psalm 33, "No king is saved by the size of his army; no warrior escapes by his great strength.17 A horse is a vain hope for deliverance; despite all its great strength it cannot save". The same supplication (prayers) were said in Nehemiah 9 as in Daniel 9 - Supplications as we both are aware is a requests that come from a heart crying out to God. The suffering servant in Isaiah 53 and the description of the infliction that carried to one person can only be given for the purpose of salvation, "the punishment that brought us peace was on him, and by his wounds we are healed."

                          This verse emphasizes the whole point, "Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
                          and though the Lord makes his life an offering for sin, he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
                          and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand. 11 After he has suffered, he will see the light of life and be satisfied

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Originally posted by mitzi View Post
                            The suffering servant in Isaiah 53 and the description of the infliction that carried to one person can only be given for the purpose of salvation, "the punishment that brought us peace was on him, and by his wounds we are healed."

                            This verse emphasizes the whole point, "Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
                            and though the Lord makes his life an offering for sin, he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
                            and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand. 11 After he has suffered, he will see the light of life and be satisfied
                            Unless we hold to a type of universal salvation that everyone is saved whether they believe or not, then we also have to acknowledge those who gave their lives bringing us knowledge of Jesus and the God of Israel, namely prophets and apostles who were martyred for delivering that knowledge to believe in.

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              The Kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking ...
                              Indeed.

                              Romans 14:1 As for the one who is weak in faith, welcome him, but not to quarrel over opinions.

                              If it is your opinion that you should only eat vegetables at a fellowship meal because you don't know whether any meat found there had been previously sacrificed to idols and then sold on the market, then you shouldn't judge those who do eat. And if you bought the meat and know that it is good, then you shouldn't judge those who don't eat. If it is your opinion that you should fast twice a week, then you shouldn't judge those who don't and vice versa.

                              Luke 18:11-12 The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’

                              Nowhere in the Bible is it commanded to fast twice a week, so that is a matter of man-made tradition and opinion. The one place in the Bible where fasting is commanded is on Yom Kippur, which then is no longer a matter of opinion, but of obedience.
                              Last edited by Soyeong; 10-29-2014, 06:22 PM.
                              "Faith is nothing less than the will to keep one's mind fixed precisely on what reason has discovered to it." - Edward Feser

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Originally posted by JohnnyP View Post
                                Unless we hold to a type of universal salvation that everyone is saved whether they believe or not, then we also have to acknowledge those who gave their lives bringing us knowledge of Jesus and the God of Israel, namely prophets and apostles who were martyred for delivering that knowledge to believe in.
                                What I am saying is that only "one" person brought salvation to the Gentiles and Jews. If someone is ministering to another they are bringing that "salvation" to others about Jesus Christ and yes, they are martyrs because they are being hindered or cruelly punished for bringing it.
                                Just like the Red Cross workers and delivering supplies across enemy borders - there is usually an oppositions that will hinder others from delivering the supplies to the "needy" so they may live and eat. Sometimes these workers are killed but we all know the risk - but don't think that they (Christians - especially in the Middle East) are "not" honored for their work in the field and also, for the chances they take to deliver the word of God - and his salvation, as well as, food supplies to others so that they will live!!


                                "Praise to the God of All Comfort

                                3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of compassion and the God of all comfort, 4 who comforts us in all our troubles, so that we can comfort those in any trouble with the comfort we ourselves receive from God. 5 For just as we share abundantly in the sufferings of Christ, so also our comfort abounds through Christ. 6 If we are distressed, it is for your comfort and salvation; if we are comforted, it is for your comfort, which produces in you patient endurance of the same sufferings we suffer. 7 And our hope for you is firm, because we know that just as you share in our sufferings, so also you share in our comfort.

                                8 We do not want you to be uninformed, brothers and sisters, about the troubles we experienced in the province of Asia. We were under great pressure, far beyond our ability to endure, so that we despaired of life itself. 9 Indeed, we felt we had received the sentence of death. But this happened that we might not rely on ourselves but on God, who raises the dead. 10 He has delivered us from such a deadly peril, and he will deliver us again. On him we have set our hope that he will continue to deliver us, 11 as you help us by your prayers. Then many will give thanks on our behalf for the gracious favor granted us in answer to the prayers of many. 2 Corinthians 1
                                add-on:

                                but Isaiah 53 - is "all" about Christ and his opposition to bring that salvation to us...in the same way. Christ suffered much for us and for "all" to give us that salvation from God.

                                “Praise be to the Lord, the God of Israel, because he has come to his people and redeemed them.
                                69 He has raised up a horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David

                                70 (as he said through his holy prophets of long ago), 71 salvation from our enemies

                                He has sent us a mighty Savior from the royal line of his servant David, English Standard Version
                                Last edited by mitzi; 11-01-2014, 12:34 PM.

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