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Why should I believe in Jesus and the NT?

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  • #91
    While I see Jesus as being chief among Suffering Servants obviously, I don't see that it has to be only about Jesus, especially with verses like this:
    Matthew 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

    There's this endless pattern of debate:

    Christians: The Suffering Servant is Jesus! Jews: No, the Suffering Servant is Jews! Christians: No, the Suffering Servant is Jesus! etc.

    While I agree, "Yes righteous Jews are the Suffering Servant. And Jesus is also a righteous Jew who suffered for God. Debate about that general idea over."

    So that's my position, not really compromising beliefs but it does work out to be a compromise with a typical Jewish position which helps discussion move forward.

    Comment


    • #92
      Originally posted by JohnnyP View Post
      While I see Jesus as being chief among Suffering Servants obviously, I don't see that it has to be only about Jesus, especially with verses like this:

      There's this endless pattern of debate:

      Christians: The Suffering Servant is Jesus! Jews: No, the Suffering Servant is Jews! Christians: No, the Suffering Servant is Jesus! etc.

      While I agree, "Yes righteous Jews are the Suffering Servant. And Jesus is also a righteous Jew who suffered for God. Debate about that general idea over."

      So that's my position, not really compromising beliefs but it does work out to be a compromise with a typical Jewish position which helps discussion move forward.
      There isn't any argument on my end about the suffering that came out of both religions. However, what I am saying (again) is that this particular passage is about "what came out of the suffering of one God's servant" - After he has suffered, he will see the light of life and be satisfied;
      by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many, and he will bear their iniquities.

      Again, and repeating something I said awhile back - The verse out of Esdras tells us that the "great prophets" prayed for the unrighteous soul ("Prayed" as in the verse 9"His soul mourns for him" (Job 14:22) - the prophets had prayed for those who were lost - or dead, as to pray to God to revive the souls ) In another sense, the story of Jacob where he mourns for his son Joseph, and "Jacob rent his garments and placed sackcloth on his loins. He mourned his sons many days." we mourn for those (Christians and Jews) who have either turned away from or in another way, have never experienced faith in God or have lost their faith but it is God who sent us a savior - as read in Isaiah 53, and in the verse the passage explains "that the people had turn away from him....."


      "Like one from whom people hide their faces he was despised, and we held him in low esteem. Surely he took up our pain and bore our suffering,yet we considered him punished by God,stricken by him, and afflicted."


      In our supplication (prayers), and as in Nehemiah 9,as in Daniel 9 - our requests come from the heart crying out to God, and in our suffering (and here's where I agree with you) God bring us comfort and wisdom, and answers us. The suffering servant in Isaiah 53 and the description of the infliction that carried to one person can only be given for the purpose of salvation, "the punishment that brought us peace was on him, and by his wounds we are healed."



      From Mourning to Comfort

      by Rav Yehuda Shaviv
      Last edited by mitzi; 11-05-2014, 11:47 PM.

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      • #93
        Originally posted by mitzi View Post
        There isn't any argument on my end about the suffering that came out of both religions. However, what I am saying (again) is that this particular passage is about "what came out of the suffering of one God's servant" - After he has suffered, he will see the light of life and be satisfied;
        by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many, and he will bear their iniquities.

        Again, and repeating something I said awhile back - The verse out of Esdras tells us that the "great prophets" prayed for the unrighteous soul ("Prayed" as in the verse 9"His soul mourns for him" (Job 14:22) - the prophets had prayed for those who were lost - or dead, as to pray to God to revive the souls ) In another sense, the story of Jacob where he mourns for his son Joseph, and "Jacob rent his garments and placed sackcloth on his loins. He mourned his sons many days." we mourn for those (Christians and Jews) who have either turned away from or in another way, have never experienced faith in God or have lost their faith but it is God who sent us a savior - as read in Isaiah 53, and in the verse the passage explains "that the people had turn away from him....."


        "Like one from whom people hide their faces he was despised, and we held him in low esteem. Surely he took up our pain and bore our suffering,yet we considered him punished by God,stricken by him, and afflicted."


        In our supplication (prayers), and as in Nehemiah 9,as in Daniel 9 - our requests come from the heart crying out to God, and in our suffering (and here's where I agree with you) God bring us comfort and wisdom, and answers us. The suffering servant in Isaiah 53 and the description of the infliction that carried to one person can only be given for the purpose of salvation, "the punishment that brought us peace was on him, and by his wounds we are healed."



        From Mourning to Comfort

        by Rav Yehuda Shaviv
        If you're saying in part that, his death for our sins makes us ashamed of them, and that mourning for his death helps the spirit of repentance grow so that we want to do good not evil, I agree. But I might still apply that to other martyrs who died bringing the message of salvation for our sins.

        I'm not so much for penal substitution or perfect sacrifice ideas at face value. Rather that Jesus died in obedience to the Father and was found worthy to be King and Judge who can give us mercy if we repent, the idea expressed in Hebrews. That's my primary view of how salvation is accomplished, although as said bringing about repentance in the first place is also important.

        Comment


        • #94
          Originally posted by JohnnyP View Post
          If you're saying in part that, his death for our sins makes us ashamed of them, and that mourning for his death helps the spirit of repentance grow so that we want to do good not evil, I agree. But I might still apply that to other martyrs who died bringing the message of salvation for our sins.

          I'm not so much for penal substitution or perfect sacrifice ideas at face value. Rather that Jesus died in obedience to the Father and was found worthy to be King and Judge who can give us mercy if we repent, the idea expressed in Hebrews. That's my primary view of how salvation is accomplished, although as said bringing about repentance in the first place is also important.
          7. During the days of Jesus’ life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with fervent cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission. 8 Son though he was, he learned obedience from what he suffered 9and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him 10and was designated by God to be high priest in the order of Melchizedek.

          Just a Thought: On ‘teshuva’

          The way of returning a "soul" back to God - Mistranslated as “repentance,” teshuva really means “return” – a return to God and, more importantly, a return to the person we are meant to be. The very "act" of God forgiving us is the fact that He hears and like so many prayers in the Torah, it reads: Hear the supplication of your servant and of your people Israel when they pray toward this place. Hear from heaven, your dwelling place, and when you hear, forgive. 1 Kings 8:22

          In Daniel, "18 Give ear, our God, and hear; open your eyes and see the desolation of the city that bears your Name. We do not make requests of you because we are righteous, but because of your great mercy. 19 Lord, listen! Lord, forgive! Lord, hear and act! For your sake, my God, do not delay, because your city and your people bear your Name.”

          In John 17, the prayer speaks of Jesus - knowing - God's name and in that name, Jesus "asked" to have the Apostles guarded and protected,"Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name, the name you gave me, so that they may be one as we are one. 12 While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me." So who else would know the name of God - other than the high priest and isn't it during Yom Kippur (once a year) that God's name is even spoken?

          In Orthodox synagogues, most Conservative, and some progressive[16] a detailed description of the Temple ritual is recited on the day. In most Orthodox and some Conservative synagogues, the entire congregation prostrates themselves at each point in the recitation where the Kohen Gadol (High Priest) would pronounce the Tetragrammaton (God’s holiest name, according to Judaism) - .

          Comment


          • #95
            All I would caution is that don't look on the State of Israel as an idol that you pray to, but pray for everyone around the world to turn away from it. The State of Israel is the image of the Beast against Jesus, and it is going to burn as the daughter of Babylon.

            Comment


            • #96
              Originally posted by JohnnyP View Post
              All I would caution is that don't look on the State of Israel as an idol that you pray to, but pray for everyone around the world to turn away from it. The State of Israel is the image of the Beast against Jesus, and it is going to burn as the daughter of Babylon.
              I do not think you addressed mitzi's post. Your answer gives me a clearer picture where your coming from.
              Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
              Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
              But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

              go with the flow the river knows . . .

              Frank

              I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

              Comment


              • #97
                I might think Jews should observe Jesus' statements for no other reasons than to hear what Jesus taught about/from the O.T. Jesus' claim was that He was the Deliverer of those Words or more succinctly that He Is The Word made flesh.

                The hand of understanding was not delivered to Israel of the flesh in any case:

                God's (forgive the technically incorrect non O drop in God) claim here will hold true:

                Deuteronomy 29:4
                Yet the Lord hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day.

                Nevertheless every person of Israel shall be saved regardless of their condition: Romans 11:25-32 A mystery most christians still don't understand.

                I would not suggest to any Jew to set foot within fragmented christianity for a moment.

                Contemplations are everything and hurt no one.

                Comment


                • #98
                  Originally posted by squint View Post
                  I would not suggest to any Jew to set foot within fragmented christianity for a moment.
                  Moderated By: Bill the Cat

                  Please explain what you mean by this statement. Are you suggesting that Jews do not need Christ, or that they should not become Christians?

                  ***If you wish to take issue with this notice DO NOT do so in this thread.***
                  Contact the forum moderator or an administrator in Private Message or email instead. If you feel you must publicly complain or whine, please take it to the Padded Room unless told otherwise.

                  That's what
                  - She

                  Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                  - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                  I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                  - Stephen R. Donaldson

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                  • #99
                    Originally posted by JohnnyP View Post
                    All I would caution is that don't look on the State of Israel as an idol that you pray to, but pray for everyone around the world to turn away from it. The State of Israel is the image of the Beast against Jesus, and it is going to burn as the daughter of Babylon.
                    Jesus wept - why did Jesus weep? Each of the prophets wept over their own people so that they would return back to God. The Book of Baruch - :1–14 Introduction: "And these are the words...which Baruch...wrote in Babylonia.... And when they heard it they wept, and fasted, and prayed before the Lord." 1:15–2:10 Confession of sins: "The Lord hath watched over us for evil, and hath brought it upon us: for the Lord is just in all his works.... And we have not hearkened to his voice"....2:11–3:8 Prayer for mercy: "For the dead that are in hell, whose spirit is taken away from their bowels, shall not give glory and justice to the Lord..." (cf. Psalms 6:6/5)
                    3:9–4:14 Paean for Wisdom: "Where are the princes of the nations,... that hoard up silver and gold, wherein men trust? ... They are cut off, and are gone down to hell,..."4:5–5:9 Message to those in captivity: "You have been sold to the Gentiles, not for your destruction: but because you provoked God to wrath.... [F]or the sins of my children, he [the Eternal] hath brought a nation upon them from afar...who have neither reverenced the ancient, nor pitied children..."

                    Read then Nehemiah 5 - When I heard their outcry and these charges, I was very angry. 7 I pondered them in my mind and then accused the nobles and officials. I told them, “You are charging your own people interest!” So I called together a large meeting to deal with them 8 and said: “As far as possible, we have bought back our fellow Jews who were sold to the Gentiles. Now you are selling your own people, only for them to be sold back to us!” They kept quiet, because they could find nothing to say.


                    What angered Jesus with the money changers, "12And Jesus entered the temple and drove out all those who were buying and selling in the temple, and overturned the tables of the money changers and the seats of those who were selling doves. 13And He said to them, "It is written, 'MY HOUSE SHALL BE CALLED A HOUSE OF PRAYER'; but you are making it a ROBBERS' DEN."


                    (Edit)
                    Jesus was "NO" different than any other prophet who was angry over their own people – But! Like Moses , they had pleaded with God to be merciful – and to have compassion! The city of Jerusalem is where the Jews found rest and a homeland and the temple is where they worship God…not the other way around. The Gentiles as well as Jews brought sacrifices to the Temple is implied in the prayer of Solomon when he dedicated the Temple (I Kings 8:41-3) and in the declaration by the prophet that the Temple will be a house of prayer for all peoples (Isaiah 56:7). Johnny P - Solomon dedicated not only the temple to God but blessed and instructed the people at the same time. In every prayer you will read the same thought, as in 3 Mac.2 - each segment of Solomon's prayer is incorporated (in thought) of the dedication - 46 “When they sin against you—for there is no one who does not sin—and you become angry with them and give them over to their enemies, who take them captive to their own lands, far away or near; 47 and if they have a change of heart in the land where they are held captive, and repent and plead with you in the land of their captors and say, ‘We have sinned, we have done wrong, we have acted wickedly’; 48 and if they turn back to you with all their heart and soul in the land of their enemies who took them captive, and pray to you toward the land you gave their ancestors, toward the city you have chosen and the temple I have built for your Name; 49 then from heaven, your dwelling place, hear their prayer and their plea, and uphold their cause.


                    Each segment of the prayer applies to "some" situations but the prayer is allowing the Israelites/the Jewish people to return back to God. In Nehemiah 9 - those thoughts of return and how many times God has/and had forgiven the people. The passage is felt very strongly as to endorse what Jesus said about one's neighbor: How many time do I forgive my neighbor, "Then Peter came and said to Him, "Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him? Up to seven times?" 22Jesus said to him, "I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.…"
                    Last edited by mitzi; 11-25-2014, 05:14 PM. Reason: add on

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                    • Reply back to Squint

                      Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27"I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.…


                      .......read Baruch on this, as in Ezekiel 18:31
                      Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel?



                      But in the country of their exile, they will come to themselves 31 and acknowledge that I am the Lord their God. I shall give them a heart and an attentive ear,
                      32 and they will sing my praises in the country of their exile, they will remember my name; 33 they will stop being obstinate and, remembering what became of their ancestors who sinned before the Lord, will turn from their evil deeds.

                      34 Then I shall bring them back to the country which I promised on oath to their ancestors Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and make them masters in it. I shall make their numbers grow; they will not dwindle again (See Nehemiah 1: 8 “Remember the instruction you gave your servant Moses, saying, ‘If you are unfaithful, I will scatter you among the nations, 9 but if you return to me and obey my commands, then even if your exiled people are at the farthest horizon, I will gather them from there and bring them to the place I have chosen as a dwelling for my Name.’)

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by mossrose View Post
                        Shalom, Avraham. Thank you for your question.

                        If I were a Jew and understood the Old Testament, especially the prophet Isaiah, but including all of the writings of the prophets, I would have no choice but to believe in Jesus as the Messiah, because He fulfills EVERY prophecy made about the Messiah in the OT. Except for those still future prophecies about the kingdom yet to be fulfilled.

                        Why Isaiah? What prophecies did he fulfill?

                        Comment


                        • sorry still learning how this works

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by HebrewIsraeli View Post
                            Why Isaiah? What prophecies did he fulfill?
                            Not so much as what prophecy that Isaiah fulfilled - but what he predicted in, 7:14 (Messianic passage). "Therefore, G-d Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the young woman will conceive and bear a son, and she will call his name Immanuel."
                            • There is no more timely message for this period of the Jewish calendar and the Tisha B’Av observance than this very message of the prophet Isaiah. Isaiah 1:16: “Rah’cha’tzoo hee’za’koo, ha’see’roo ro’ah ma’ah’l'lay’chem mee’neh’ged ay’nai,” Wash yourselves, purify yourselves, remove the evil of your doings from before My eyes; desist from doing evil. Learn to do good, seek justice, strengthen the victim, do justice for the orphan, take up the cause of the widow.



                            In those days Hezekiah became very sick. Isaiah came and told him that he would die. Hezekiah prayed to the Lord. The Lord told Isaiah to tell Hezekiah that his life would be extended 15 years. Hezekiah asked for a sign of God's healing, so God moved the sun back 10 degrees.

                            When the king of Babylon heard of Hezekiah's healing he sent presents to him. Hezekiah showed off all the wealth of Jerusalem and the temple but he did not mention the Lord God. Afterwards Isaiah told Hezekiah that all he had shown them would eventually be taken away and brought to Babylon. 100 years later, Nebuchadnezzar, the king of Babylon, came back and destroyed Jerusalem and took the people captive.'

                            References:

                            Hezekiah

                            The Marcos and Adina Katz YUTorah Online. A project of YU's Center for the Jewish Future.
                            Rabbi Isaac Elchanan Theological Seminary
                            An Affiliate of Yeshiva University
                            Devarim-Tisha B'Av 5766-2006: Isaiah’s Message to Contemporary Jews

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                            • HebrewIsraeli: sorry still learning how this works

                              So am I ....it's a long journey!

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