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Thread: Why should I believe in Jesus and the NT?

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    tWebber Avraham Ibn Ezra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mossrose View Post
    What do you think would be a reason for you to believe in Jesus and the NT?
    To me, as far as my reading of the events of Jesus' life and the events in the NT there really isn't one. I stated in the opener "Judaism has a very developed theological system with our Mesorah covering virtually every aspect of the Jewish Life and beliefs."

    I am trying to see if there is a reason, from y'all why I should given my opening statement.
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    tWebber Chrawnus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Avraham Ibn Ezra View Post
    To me, as far as my reading of the events of Jesus' life and the events in the NT there really isn't one. I stated in the opener "Judaism has a very developed theological system with our Mesorah covering virtually every aspect of the Jewish Life and beliefs."

    I am trying to see if there is a reason, from y'all why I should given my opening statement.
    You should believe in Him because God raised him from the dead, vindicating Him and His claims of being the Son of God and the Messiah.

  3. #13
    Oops....... mossrose's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Avraham Ibn Ezra View Post
    To me, as far as my reading of the events of Jesus' life and the events in the NT there really isn't one. I stated in the opener "Judaism has a very developed theological system with our Mesorah covering virtually every aspect of the Jewish Life and beliefs."

    I am trying to see if there is a reason, from y'all why I should given my opening statement.
    Well, there isn't much, really, anybody can say to give you a reason, beyond the words of the books themselves. If you are not desirous of reading the NT to find out for yourself, no one will be able to convince you. If you have read the NT and can think of no reason to believe that Jesus is the Messiah, then nobody will be able to give you a reason to convince you.

    I must add, however, that your statement that Jesus didn't say much different from what His rabbis taught is in error. Jesus totally obliterated the Mosaic and Abrahamic covenants, and He obliterated the Pharisees' works-based and oppressive religion. So, the things He said were new and "anti-establishment", if I may say so. That is why the Pharisees continually tried to kill him, and they finally succeeded.

    But only in God's timing, not theirs.

    I pray you will recognize Jesus as your Saviour and that you will come into a relationship with Him.


    Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

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    tWebber robrecht's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Avraham Ibn Ezra View Post
    All Jews are Israelites
    Yes, of course, but not all Israelites are Judeans, depending upon the usage of the word Ἰουδαῖος, ἀνὴρ ἐξ Ιουδα, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Avraham Ibn Ezra View Post
    I dont care to speculate. Apparently Pilate thought so and so did the high priest and his chief guards of the temple. Notice the Pharisees are missing from this equation.
    If you accept a role of the high priest and the temple soldiers, how can you be so sure that there were no pharisees involved from the local Jerusalem sanhedrin?

    Quote Originally Posted by Avraham Ibn Ezra View Post
    From what I can tell it wasn't anything new. Most of his teachings are straight from his Pharisaic teachers and contemporaries
    I agree, for the most part, but he does seem to combine some things in surprising ways, and the (mostly) later massive outreach to the Gentiles among his followers is striking. This is what seems most distinctive to me, and also where I think things went wrong for the most part between the various groups.

    Quote Originally Posted by Avraham Ibn Ezra View Post
    If you want a deeper meaning go for Kabbalah. it has enough Shutyot to fill a shipyard.
    I think you mean shtuyot (שטויות), correct? Why would I want that?

    Quote Originally Posted by Avraham Ibn Ezra View Post
    What do you mean by "discover?"
    For some, what is learned may be surprising, a discovery in that sense. I like to be open to surprises, to learning new things.
    βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον
    ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

    אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

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    Yes, of course, but not all Israelites are Judeans
    Or rather not all, Israelites were Judai.

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    tWebber Avraham Ibn Ezra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mossrose View Post
    Well, there isn't much, really, anybody can say to give you a reason, beyond the words of the books themselves. If you are not desirous of reading the NT to find out for yourself, no one will be able to convince you. If you have read the NT and can think of no reason to believe that Jesus is the Messiah, then nobody will be able to give you a reason to convince you.
    Fair enough but it doesn't really keep me from inquiring from others why I should.

    I must add, however, that your statement that Jesus didn't say much different from what His rabbis taught is in error.
    How so? Name one teaching that was "new" that the Pharisees didnt discuss or teach. My reading of the NT doesn't show a divergent Jesus. IMO he was an observant Jew.

    Jesus totally obliterated the Mosaic and Abrahamic covenants, and He obliterated the Pharisees' works-based and oppressive religion.
    Can you cite where Jesus said he obliterated the mosaic covenant? As far is I can tell he said he "did not come to destroy the law or the prophets but to fulfill." Nothing about "obliterating" here. In fact, he said the opposite. His later followers, I.E. Paul, did teach what you are saying.



    So, the things He said were new and "anti-establishment", if I may say so. That is why the Pharisees continually tried to kill him, and they finally succeeded.
    Can you cite the number of times along with their verses in The NT that shows that the Pharisees tried to kill him on numerous occasions? I am only finding the high priests, temple guards, and chief priests on the repetition of people who wanted to kill Jesus. Maybe you can help me out here since the NT is not exactly my religious writing.
    אברהם אבן עזרא

    Avraham Ibn Ezra

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    tWebber Avraham Ibn Ezra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by robrecht View Post
    Yes, of course, but not all Israelites are Judeans, depending upon the usage of the word Ἰουδαῖος, ἀνὴρ ἐξ Ιουδα, etc.
    Yet the other Israelites identify by way of Judaism.

    If you accept a role of the high priest and the temple soldiers, how can you be so sure that there were no pharisees involved from the local Jerusalem sanhedrin?
    Assuming the text of the NT is accurate does the NT text say the Pharisees were present?

    I think you mean shtuyot (שטויות), correct? Why would I want that?
    Yes I did mean that. I have a tendency to transpose letters sometimes when typing fast. I also think you understand my point.

    For some, what is learned may be surprising, a discovery in that sense. I like to be open to surprises, to learning new things.
    I am never opposed to learning new things.
    אברהם אבן עזרא

    Avraham Ibn Ezra

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    tWebber robrecht's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Avraham Ibn Ezra View Post
    Yet the other Israelites identify by way of Judaism.
    But we should not read our understanding of Judaism and Jewish identity into New Testament and other contemporary texts that speak of Judaens/Jews.

    Quote Originally Posted by Avraham Ibn Ezra View Post
    Assuming the text of the NT is accurate does the NT text say the Pharisees were present?
    The New Testament does not say who the members of the local Jerusalem sanhedrin were.

    Quote Originally Posted by Avraham Ibn Ezra View Post
    Yes I did mean that. I have a tendency to transpose letters sometimes when typing fast. I also think you understand my point.

    I am never opposed to learning new things.
    And those new things may not be שטויות.
    βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον
    ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

    אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

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    tWebber Avraham Ibn Ezra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by robrecht View Post
    But we should not read our understanding of Judaism and Jewish identity into New Testament and other contemporary texts that speak of Judaens/Jews.
    Possibly. Although Mordechai, a benjaminite, was also called a יהודי in Ester.

    The New Testament does not say who the members of the local Jerusalem sanhedrin were.
    The Sanhedrin was composed of many sects at the time. Pharisaic and sadducean.

    However as for who was responsible each of the gospels give differing lists the only constants are chief priests, temple guards, and elders. As for Elders it is hard to say what is meant here. Saduccees and Pharisees made up "elders" at that time.

    And those new things may not be שטויות.
    I'm not going to speculate on this.
    אברהם אבן עזרא

    Avraham Ibn Ezra

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    tWebber robrecht's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Avraham Ibn Ezra View Post
    Possibly. Although Mordechai, a benjaminite, was also called a יהודי in Ester.
    Recall, that I said Judaen/Jews; I did not say that the word could never mean Jew.

    Quote Originally Posted by Avraham Ibn Ezra View Post
    The Sanhedrin was composed of many sects at the time. Pharisaic and sadducean.

    However as for who was responsible each of the gospels give differing lists the only constants are chief priests, temple guards, and elders. As for Elders it is hard to say what is meant here. Saduccees and Pharisees made up "elders" at that time.

    I'm not going to speculate on this.
    Why speculate that no pharisees were among the sanhedrin members or elders that may have been involved in the judgment or execution of Jesus? We simply do not know.
    βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον
    ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

    אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

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