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Why should I believe in Jesus and the NT?

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  • #46
    Amen, my friend. Paul's own autobiographical sketch of his former life in Judaism compared to his life in Christ is absolutely stunning
    Jesus was the Jewish Messiah and he didn't come to start a new religion. Paul never left Judaism and never identified as anything other than a Jew.

    Acts 22:3 “I am a Jew, born in Tarsus in Cilicia, but brought up in this city, educated at the feet of Gamaliel[b] according to the strict manner of the law of our fathers, being zealous for God as all of you are this day.

    What he did leave behind was what he had been trained in, namely the strict manner of the law of his fathers. He was blameless when it came to works-based righteousness and following all of the traditions of the rabbis for how to keep the Torah.

    Romans 9:30-32 What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness[d] did not succeed in reaching that law. 32 Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works.

    He was making exactly this mistake of pursing the law as if it were based on works rather than pursuing it by faith. Jesus is the goal of the Torah and he had missed it, so he counted it as loss. He was now free to become a slave of righteousness leading to sanctification and to pursue the law by faith.

    To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law; to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law.
    I'm sorry, I don't consider Paul to be a fraud who lied in court. He had that audacity to claim that no one could provide evidence for their claims, but that would have been plentiful if Paul had been speaking out of both sides of his mouth. You have to say that Paul said and did all of these things which agree with my interpretation, but that he secretly agree with yours because he was just faking it, which I think is absurd.

    Huh? Law of Christ? Yup - "Bear one another's burdens, and thereby fulfill the law of Christ". (Gal. 6:2).
    The Law of Christ would be the way that he taught how to follow the Torah.
    "Faith is nothing less than the will to keep one's mind fixed precisely on what reason has discovered to it." - Edward Feser

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by Soyeong View Post
      Jesus was the Jewish Messiah and he didn't come to start a new religion.
      Right, He came to fulfill the law and usher in the New Covenant.

      Paul never left Judaism and never identified as anything other than a Jew.

      Acts 22:3 “I am a Jew, born in Tarsus in Cilicia, but brought up in this city, educated at the feet of Gamaliel[b] according to the strict manner of the law of our fathers, being zealous for God as all of you are this day.
      I don't think Paul's Jewishness was significant in his mind - "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus." When dealing with believers he expressed that reality, yet when it came to evangelizing the Jewish people he would highlight his Jewishness for their sake, if he thought it would lead to their salvation/reception of the gospel - "to the Jews I became as a Jew".

      What he did leave behind was what he had been trained in, namely the strict manner of the law of his fathers. He was blameless when it came to works-based righteousness and following all of the traditions of the rabbis for how to keep the Torah.
      "as to the righteousness which is in the Law, found blameless." Do you see that? Righteousness which is in the Law - not the traditions of men - but the righteousness which is in the law.

      Romans 9:30-32 What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness[d] did not succeed in reaching that law. 32 Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works.

      He was making exactly this mistake of pursing the law as if it were based on works rather than pursuing it by faith. Jesus is the goal of the Torah and he had missed it, so he counted it as loss. He was now free to become a slave of righteousness leading to sanctification and to pursue the law by faith.
      Pursuing the law by faith? What precisely does that mean? I see Paul stating he is casting off literally everything to pursue Christ and His righteousness.

      I'm sorry, I don't consider Paul to be a fraud who lied in court. He had that audacity to claim that no one could provide evidence for their claims, but that would have been plentiful if Paul had been speaking out of both sides of his mouth. You have to say that Paul said and did all of these things which agree with my interpretation, but that he secretly agree with yours because he was just faking it, which I think is absurd.
      "just as I try to please everyone in everything I do, not seeking my own advantage, but that of many, that they may be saved." (1Cor. 10:33). I see a man who has reached a state of maturity and he is willing to conform and become "one of them" for the purpose of Christ and His gospel.

      The Law of Christ would be the way that he taught how to follow the Torah.
      The verse states: "Bear one another's burdens, and thereby fulfill the law of Christ". (Gal. 6:2). We bear one another's burdens - essentially love one another - and the law of Christ is fulfilled. You are smuggling in Torah, once again, unjustifiably.

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by Soyeong View Post
        Even when the Torah was originally written, not everyone was supposed to follow all of the laws. Some were for the King, High priest, priests, judges, Israelites living in the land, strangers living among them, and to everyone. For instance, the Noahide laws were considered to be incumbent on all mankind to keep. Other laws Gentiles were required to keep:
        Agreed, some laws only for women, etc.

        Originally posted by Soyeong View Post
        Exodus 12:18-20 In the first month, from the fourteenth day of the month at evening, you shall eat unleavened bread until the twenty-first day of the month at evening. 19 For seven days no leaven is to be found in your houses. If anyone eats what is leavened, that person will be cut off from the congregation of Israel, whether he is a sojourner or a native of the land. 20 You shall eat nothing leavened; in all your dwelling places you shall eat unleavened bread.”

        In other words, aliens were responsible for keeping the Feast of Unleavened Bread. Did they keep that feast the 1st century? They sure did:

        1 Corinthians 5:6-8 Your boasting is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump?7 Cleanse out the old leaven that you may be a new lump, as you really are unleavened. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed. 8 Let us therefore celebrate the festival, not with the old leaven, the leaven of malice and evil, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
        I'll focus on this section to address questions about others:

        1. In 1 Corinthians 5:6-8 Paul was talking specifically of eating the Passover yet uncircumcised couldn't eat it per Leviticus 12:48, so it seems either he would be directing this in a literal way at Corinthians who had been circumcised to become Jews, or he was also addressing uncircumcised Gentiles in a purely metaphorical way.

        2. Back to Abraham:

        Genesis 17:10 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.
        ...
        Genesis 17:14 And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.

        Eating leavened bread carried the same penalty, being cut off:

        Exodus 12:19 For seven days no leaven is to be found in your houses. If anyone eats what is leavened, that person will be cut off from the congregation of Israel, whether he is a sojourner or a native of the land.

        According to the command for Abraham, uncircumcised strangers would have already been cut off from the congregation, so it seems that where this refers to sojourners, it means Gentiles who have been circumcised and converted to become Jews. Or in other words, being in the congregation of Israel. Thus still remaining commands for circumcised Jews, not uncircumcised Gentiles.

        Yet by Jeremiah's description of the New Covenant, God sows Israel with the seed of beast which of course are uncircumcised Gentiles, the wild olive in Romans 11 graffed into the natural olive of circumcised Jews.

        Not graffed by circumcision according to Paul, or by Torah for the uncircumcised since that would change the Laws of Moses according to standards set by Abraham: the uncircumcised could never be in that congregation of circumcised Jews to start with.

        But by essentially creating a New Israel which includes the old Israel of circumcised Jews under Laws of Moses, and uncircumcised Gentiles not under those same Laws. Each in their own congregations within a greater congregation, without disrupting or abolishing Laws of Moses already given.

        Originally posted by Soyeong View Post
        The problem wasn't that they were pursuing the law, but that they were pursuing it in the wrong way. If you don't understand that much of the discussion about the law is about the way in which it is followed and that Jesus said he came to teach us the right way to understand and follow the law, then you're going to miss much of what they are saying.
        I agree with the remainder here so I edited it down to avoid repetition.

        Comment


        • #49
          [QUOTE]
          Originally posted by Soyeong View Post
          God did not give His instructions to His people so that they would act like robots, so there is nothing innately robotic about it, though I would agree that it can be followed in the wrong way. I also agree that since the time of Abraham, obeying God's instructions has been about faith. In Psalms 119, the law is given high praise and there is no hint that it was followed robotically or considered to be any sort or burden. Indeed, God said that it was not too hard to follow:

          Deuteronomy 30:11-14 For this commandment that I command you today is not too hard for you, neither is it far off. 12 It is not in heaven, that you should say, ‘Who will ascend to heaven for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’ 13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will go over the sea for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’ 14 But the word is very near you. It is in your mouth and in your heart, so that you can do it.
          Soyeong - I gave out Psalms 119, to use as an example for someone to read and also, to know that one must approach God when studying Torah and to ask God to bless them as they study, and to mention, to open up one's mind and soul to His wisdom..(Listen and to learn – is with our mind, heart and soul) “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.” Read: Love of God and Torah Study Rav Yehuda Rock


          "Here R. Elazar (our mishna's author) illustrates this concept. He compares knowledge without deeds to a tree with many branches but few roots. We might at first think to compare wisdom to our roots -- the foundation of our beings, and deeds to the branches -- the results or the fruits of our convictions. Our mishna tells us otherwise. Actions form the basis of our beings. We are what we do, not what we admit to intellectually. If someone "knows" he should act a certain way, he knows G-d exists and will reward and punish, he knows the Torah is truth, he knows he should watch his cholesterol level, etc. etc. -- he "knows" all the right stuff but somehow it just doesn't reach the level of the practical: Well, that plus a subway token will get him a ride on the subway. (Probably a magnetic card nowadays, but would hardly have the same ring...)" Does the Torah Make Sense? By Rabbi Dovid Rosenfeld

          What is it to love God? – Isn’t it through the studying of His word? To know God - is to know what he wants out of us and


          When we read or study don’t we feel that sense of closeness? And when we learn and communicate within that moment with our Lord isn’t like we’re in another place or that He takes us away from the everyday living?

          Main POINTS:
          • “According to the beginning of the Midrash, Torah study is meant to lead to love of God. But by the end of the Midrash, in the description of the results of Torah study, there is no mention of love of God. What happened to that goal? Clearly, the "cleaving to His ways" that is mentioned at the end of the Midrash itself represents love of God.

            The question to which Torah study is meant to provide the answer is formulated in the Midrash thus: "I do not know how to love God." There are two ways of understanding this question. It may be a question as to the substance and essence of this love – i.e., what is love of God and how is it expressed? Alternatively, the question may concern the ways and means of attaining this goal – i.e., how does one achieve love of God? The words, "Such that… thereby…," in the answer of the Midrash prove that the question is being asked in the second sense; it concerns ways and means. But the fact that at the end of the Midrash the expression in the Torah, "love of God," is exchanged for a new formulation – "cleaving to His ways" – tells us that in the wake of the commandment of Torah study, we learn not only the ways and means of attaining love of God, but also a new interpretation of the concept of loving God: cleaving to His ways.” Love of God and Torah Study Rav Yehuda Rock


          • Read the “Heart of the Law: and the Law of the Gospel, “Observing the law was not a matter of adhering to various external codes of conduct but involved the rigorous self-examination of the heart and soul.”
            http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Art...f_the_law.html

          • Maimonides held that the Torah is similar to other laws in its concern with the welfare of the body; but its divine nature is reflected in its concern for the welfare of the soul. And quoting, "Everyone who disbelieves in idolatry professes the Torah in its entirety", and taught that the foundation of the Torah and the pivot around which it turns consists in the effacement of idolatry. He held that the Torah must be interpreted in the light of reason.”
          • Psalm 119 features some of the famous and beautiful prayers in the Book of Tehillim, focusing primarily on the supplicant's yearning for Torah knowledge and spiritual perfection. Throughout this chapter, David speaks of his burning desire to achieve knowledge and fulfill. http://www.dailytehillim.com/AboutUs.aspx?Type=Read119



          Pointing toward some scriptural stanzas in Psalms 119:
          • 12 Blessed art thou, O LORD: teach me thy statutes.13 With my lips have I declared all the judgments of thy mouth. 18 Open thou mine eyes, that I may behold wondrous things out of thy law.19 I am a stranger in the earth: hide not thy commandments from me. 20 My soul breaketh for the longing that it hath unto thy judgments at all times. 27 Make me to understand the way of thy precepts: so shall I talk of thy wondrous works.28 My soul melteth for heaviness: strengthen thou me according unto thy word. 29 Remove from me the way of lying: and grant me thy law graciously.30 I have chosen the way of truth: thy judgments have I laid before me.

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by Soyeong View Post


            Galatians 3:24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.

            "If your father were king and you were a young child destined to rule one day, he would get a tutor to train you and teach you what you would need to know to rule the kingdom when your time came. He would give the tutor authority to teach, discipline, and punish you.

            When your time came, would you immediately shoot your tutor, reject everything he had ever taught you, and then have the audacity to proclaim your actions to be in accordance with the wishes, desires, and intentions of your father the king? The tutor is not the king. He is given by the king to train those who will one day rule. They must be trained so that they can properly make decisions and act in the liberty, freedom, responsibility, and position they will one day have.

            The tutor is there so that you might take his lessons to heart, so that they might become a natural part of your thought processes. You are to rule according to what you have learned, even though the tutor no longer has authority to control or punish you. You will not need to be controlled from then outside, because you will have accepted what you have been taught. You will be controlled from within your heart. It will be your second nature."
            huh? I think I was actually trying to say that we grow in our spiritual life and mature in the law...

            - Hebrews 5:12
            In fact, though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you the elementary truths of God's word all over again. You need milk, not solid food!

            -1 Corinthians 14:20
            Brothers and sisters, stop thinking like children. In regard to evil be infants, but in your thinking be adults.

            -1 Corinthians 3:2
            I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for it. Indeed, you are still not ready.


            1 And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual men, but as to men of flesh, as to infants in Christ. 2I gave you milk to drink, not solid food; for you were not yet able to receive it. Indeed, even now you are not yet able, 3for you are still fleshly. For since there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not fleshly, and are you not walking like mere men?…

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by Soyeong View Post

              I'm not sure how the 2nd half of your response relates to what you quoted from me.

              There were some important part written in that paragraph, especially when touching on idolatry issues, and that was, "Come, make us gods that shall go before us" there were other scriptural points that some had touched on when reading I Samuel 8:20, "Until Shmuel, the Jews had no kings. There was a judge in each generation who provided a certain amount of moral leadership, but his power and influence weren't nearly as those of a king. The Jews who Shmuel served wanted a king to judge them "like all the nations" (I Samuel, 8 5) and who would "lead them out into battle" (I Samuel, 8 20).


              ***And he said to the children of Israel, "So said the Lord, God of Israel, 'I brought Israel up from Egypt, and I delivered you from the hand of the Egyptians, and from the hand of all the kingdoms which oppressed you.'19. And today you have rejected your God, Who saves you from all your adversities and your troubles, and you have said to Him, 'But, a king You shall set over us.' And now, stand before the Lord by your tribes and by your thousands."
              "

              The last stanza, "15. But, if you will not hearken to the voice of the Lord, and you will rebel against the commandments of the Lord, the Lord's hand will be against you and against your fathers. 16. Even now, stand and see this great thing which the Lord will do before your eyes. 17. Is it not wheat harvest today? I shall call to the Lord, and He will send thunder and rain, and you shall know and see, that your evil is great, which you have done in the eyes of the Lord, to ask for yourselves a king."


              How can certain laws apply to one and not the other - especially on the laws of idolatry with Jews verses Gentiles - even today and, when there are a tremendous amount of issues underneath the main heading of that subject - don't they or should they apply to all?

              If we were grafted into the main branch - and as Paul points out very well in this comment,"18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in." 20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear"

              In the argument, and Paul is addressing this, "they were broken off for their unbelief - unbelief is a sign of idolatry, is it not? Maimonides held that the Torah is similar to other laws in its concern with the welfare of the body; but its divine nature is reflected in its concern for the welfare of the soul. And quoting, "Everyone who disbelieves in idolatry professes the Torah in its entirety", and taught that the foundation of the Torah and the pivot around which it turns consists in the effacement of idolatry. He held that the Torah must be interpreted in the light of reason.”


              and I was pointing out that there are many areas (and I'm stretching) on Noahide laws when it comes to idolatry and the law - you are limiting it~!

              Pollution by idols, fornication, blood, and from things strangled.

              Noahide laws:

              Social laws, prohibition against idolatry, adultery, eating the flesh of a living animal, blasphemy, and bloodshed.

              Soyeong;109560: Comparing the two, they didn’t include social laws because if they were joining a community of people those would have already been established. There’s a match for idolatry, adultery, and eating the flesh of a living animal, but no match for blasphemy or bloodshed. Then there’s one prohibition on the Apostle’s side against things strangled that has no match with the Noahide.

              From this, we can see that it’s not a complete list of what is required of a non-Jew because some very important things have been left out of the Noahide laws, primarily bloodshed and blasphemy. Do you suppose it was ok for Gentiles to commit those things? Of course not, that would be ridiculous, but it’s no more ridiculous to think that this is a complete list of what is going to be required for non-Jews. If it’s not a complete list, then it must be a specific list with a specific purpose.
              Last edited by mitzi; 10-20-2014, 05:45 PM.

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by JohnnyP View Post
                I'm not arguing solely that because more believe in Jesus it must be true, I figured this would come up. Unfortunately if Messianic qualifications are that he brings many Gentiles to belief in God, the question of numbers can't be avoided.
                I believe it is a popularity claim that can be avoided.

                Many Hasidic Jews don't have a problem with God manifesting himself in man so much that the man is the same as God. All prophets became as God to some extent, thought of in that way Jesus is simply the fullest extent. He was still a man with a human nature that suffered all temptations as anyone else, from the body of David.

                Other religious Jews believe in the Shekinah as well, that God is not simply one person but has a feminine aspect. This is often ignored when discussing Trinity.
                I think your way over stating the Hasidic Jews possible views of the nature of God, and other views in Judaism. There is nothing even close to the Christian Trinitarian view of God. The belief of Jesus being the incarnate God is unique in all of the above considerations. Any consideration Jewish traditions it is small 'g' god for anyone else other then God.

                As for Islam I include it in my assessment, and the Quran is not so much against the Christian Trinity but against a Trinity of the Father and Mary producing the Son Jesus, the three of them as gods.
                This doesn't come even close to the Trinity of Christianity either.

                The persecution of Jews is problematic for many of them to even believe in God since if there is a God, He allowed it to happen. But flipped around it could be said that many Canaanites may not have wanted to become Jews because Jews slaughtered a lot of them. I'm not sure that says anything about validity of either Christianity or Judaism.
                This does not parallel the attempts of extermination of the Jews many times in history, Passion plays of Europe, historical anti-Judaism, and the accusation of 'Christ killer.'

                The wars against the Canaanite in the OT is an interesting subject, but not a close parallel. The Jews and Canaanites were close cousins, and the Book of Psalms and much of the Pentateuch are most likely Canaanite source does add to the story of the warring cousins of Palestine.
                Last edited by shunyadragon; 10-20-2014, 06:59 PM.
                Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                go with the flow the river knows . . .

                Frank

                I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                  I believe it is a popularity claim that can be avoided.
                  No it can't really if it's a Messianic prophecy and you have a majority of the world seeking him through Christianity and Islam:

                  Isaiah 11:10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.

                  You can quibble that it should be all billions of Gentiles or only two individuals or anything in between, I interpret it to mean a majority thus fulfilling the prophecy with Jesus.

                  Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                  I think your way over stating the Hasidic Jews possible views of the nature of God, and other views in Judaism. There is nothing even close to the Christian Trinitarian view of God. The belief of Jesus being the incarnate God is unique in all of the above considerations. Any consideration Jewish traditions it is small 'g' god for anyone else other then God.
                  Many Hasidic Jews believe the Rebbe Schneerson is not only Messiah but God incarnate. That makes for God in Heaven, the Shekinah as the Spirit, and God as a man in the Rebbe also descended from David. It's exactly the same general idea of a Trinity on the surface.

                  Other Jews criticize the idea because it lends too much credence to Christian beliefs. A lot of other Jews think the idea of God is nuts anyway because they are atheists.

                  Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                  This doesn't come even close to the Trinity of Christianity either.
                  I know, that's why I'm saying the Quran is against a trinity of God/Mary/Jesus as a happy god family through literal sex like pagan trinities. The Quran never explicitly addresses the Christian Trinity. Most Muslims may be confused to think it does, but the main thing is they don't deny Jesus as coming from God and they still believe in the God of Israelites, that's the issue related to Messianic prophecies regarding the bringing of Gentiles to God.

                  I mean really, Jews had a long time to do this. Instead they became the Whore of Babylon against God seeking other gods as stated in Ezekiel 23 and elsewhere.

                  Along comes Jesus and *poof* now most of the world accepting him on whatever level also believes in the God of Israel. While Jews who deny Jesus are turning to atheism, secularism, Buddhism, other -isms by the droves.

                  Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                  This does not parallel the attempts of extermination of the Jews many times in history, Passion plays of Europe, historical anti-Judaism, and the accusation of 'Christ killer.'
                  Sure it does, Jews slaughtered men, women, animals. Jews are still commanded to slaughter Amalek wherever he is found. But I happen to think Jews were right in doing so, and that Canaanites should have turned to God.

                  However the Jewish response to all that same kind of thing is Humanistic Judaism, atheism, etc. Nevermind about Jesus.

                  I am rephrasing my last statement here because reading it again it came across as a personal criticism, my apologies if you already saw it:

                  Baha'i acknowledges Jesus as a manifestation of God and accepts the Bible, do you hold to that view? Thanks.
                  Last edited by JohnnyP; 10-20-2014, 11:22 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Right, He came to fulfill the law and usher in the New Covenant.
                    Mathew 5:17-19 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

                    It seems to me that you wish Jesus had said that he came to abolish the Law and the Prophets, but he said he came to fulfill it, in contrast with abolishing it. To fulfill the law is a rabbinic term that meant to interpret it in the way that it was meant to be understood, to add meaning to it, or to fill it up with meaning. To abolish the law meant to interpret it in a way that undermines it or takes away from its meaning. A yoke is another rabbinic term that referred to a rabbi’s interpretation and traditions for how they thought the Torah should be understood and followed.

                    The Pharisees added their own traditions, but over time they had perverted what was supposed to be a delight to keep (Psalms 1:2, and the rest of the Psalms, but 119 in particular shows the correct attitude) and turned it into a legalistic burden that was a heavy yoke:

                    Matthew 23:4 They tie up heavy, cumbersome loads and put them on other people’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.

                    Acts 15:10 Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear?

                    So when Jesus said his yoke was easy and his burden was light, he was saying that his interpretation of the Torah was easy to understand and to follow. When he said that he came to fulfill the law, he was saying that he came to teach us how to correctly understand how the Torah and how to follow it. As I said with Romans 9:30-32a, the problem was not that they were following the Torah, but that they were following it in the wrong way, as if it were by works rather than by faith. Note that Jesus clearly warned that those who taught against keeping the Torah would be called least in the kingdom of heaven. Also note that the law is not the same as the Old Covenant.

                    I don't think Paul's Jewishness was significant in his mind - "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus." When dealing with believers he expressed that reality, yet when it came to evangelizing the Jewish people he would highlight his Jewishness for their sake, if he thought it would lead to their salvation/reception of the gospel - "to the Jews I became as a Jew".
                    Paul was not denying that there were Jews, Greeks, slaves, free men, males, or females, but that there is a relevant distinction in regards to all being one in Christ Jesus. He was also not saying that there is no relevant distinction.

                    Romans 3:1-2a Then what advantage has the Jew? Or what is the value of circumcision? 2 Much in every way.

                    "as to the righteousness which is in the Law, found blameless." Do you see that? Righteousness which is in the Law - not the traditions of men - but the righteousness which is in the law.
                    My point of bring up the traditions of men was that the way he had been trained how to keep the Torah was a way that overly focused on outward performance, not on faith (again with Romans 9:30-32a). This was following the Torah in the wrong way, which is in part what Jesus said he came to correct.

                    Pursuing the law by faith? What precisely does that mean? I see Paul stating he is casting off literally everything to pursue Christ and His righteousness.
                    Ephesians 2:8-10 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

                    Verse 8 is huge and is what Paul has been missing because he had been trying to become justified through his own effort. But we can’t forget that verse 10 brings us back to doing good works by obeying God’s instructions. We are saved by grace through faith for the purpose of obediently following God’s Torah. Righteousness, sanctification, and obedience are all closely connected:

                    Romans 6:15-19 What then? Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means!16 Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves,[c] you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, 18 and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness.19 I am speaking in human terms, because of your natural limitations. For just as you once presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness leading to sanctification.

                    "just as I try to please everyone in everything I do, not seeking my own advantage, but that of many, that they may be saved." (1Cor. 10:33). I see a man who has reached a state of maturity and he is willing to conform and become "one of them" for the purpose of Christ and His gospel.
                    Indeed, that is what I see as well, but I do not see him as someone who taught contradictory things to different groups of people, who taught things he didn’t believe were true, or who lied in court.

                    The verse states: "Bear one another's burdens, and thereby fulfill the law of Christ". (Gal. 6:2). We bear one another's burdens - essentially love one another - and the law of Christ is fulfilled.
                    Again fulfilling the law refers to interpreting it in a way that it was meant to be understood and the law/instructions/Torah of Christ is the way that he taught it should be understood and followed. A correct understanding of the Torah leads people to bear one another’s so in doing so they are following the Torah in the way that Christ taught.

                    Matthew 22:36-40 But when the Pharisees heard that he had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered together. 35 And one of them, a lawyer, asked him a question to test him. 36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” 37 And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. 38 This is the great and first commandment. 39 And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. 40 On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.”

                    In other words, following all of the Law and the Prophets is what it looks like to keep these two commands.
                    Last edited by Soyeong; 10-20-2014, 11:56 PM.
                    "Faith is nothing less than the will to keep one's mind fixed precisely on what reason has discovered to it." - Edward Feser

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      1. In 1 Corinthians 5:6-8 Paul was talking specifically of eating the Passover yet uncircumcised couldn't eat it per Leviticus 12:48, so it seems either he would be directing this in a literal way at Corinthians who had been circumcised to become Jews, or he was also addressing uncircumcised Gentiles in a purely metaphorical way.
                      The Festival of Unleavened Bread is a week-long festival that is concurrent with Passover. In regard to Genesis 12:48, it prohibits uncircumcised Gentiles from eating of the Passover lamb.

                      Genesis 17:14 And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.
                      Genesis 17 is talking about a covenant between God and Abraham and his generations.

                      According to the command for Abraham, uncircumcised strangers would have already been cut off from the congregation, so it seems that where this refers to sojourners, it means Gentiles who have been circumcised and converted to become Jews. Or in other words, being in the congregation of Israel. Thus still remaining commands for circumcised Jews, not uncircumcised Gentiles.
                      Deuteronomy 23:15 “You shall not give up to his master a slave[a] who has escaped from his master to you.16 He shall dwell with you, in your midst, in the place that he shall choose within one of your towns, wherever it suits him. You shall not wrong him.

                      This doesn’t sound like they were told to convert or get out.

                      Not graffed by circumcision according to Paul, or by Torah for the uncircumcised since that would change the Laws of Moses according to standards set by Abraham: the uncircumcised could never be in that congregation of circumcised Jews to start with.

                      But by essentially creating a New Israel which includes the old Israel of circumcised Jews under Laws of Moses, and uncircumcised Gentiles not under those same Laws. Each in their own congregations within a greater congregation, without disrupting or abolishing Laws of Moses already given.
                      Romans 2:25-26 For circumcision indeed is of value if you obey the law, but if you break the law, your circumcision becomes uncircumcision. 26 So, if a man who is uncircumcised keeps the precepts of the law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded[b] as circumcision?
                      "Faith is nothing less than the will to keep one's mind fixed precisely on what reason has discovered to it." - Edward Feser

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by JohnnyP View Post
                        I know, that's why I'm saying the Quran is against a trinity of God/Mary/Jesus as a happy god family through literal sex like pagan trinities. The Quran never explicitly addresses the Christian Trinity. Most Muslims may be confused to think it does, but the main thing is they don't deny Jesus as coming from God and they still believe in the God of Israelites, that's the issue related to Messianic prophecies regarding the bringing of Gentiles to God.
                        Quran does not advocate for the idea of God incarnating into human form/created form. The Quran states clearly that Jesus is created just as Adam was created. All creation comes from God, belongs to God and will return to God...but this does not mean that any part of creation IS God.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Soyeong View Post
                          Mathew 5:17-19 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
                          Oh goodness yes, I believe we should teach others to obey the commandments of Christ: "You have heard that the ancients were told, ‘YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT MURDER’ and ‘Whoever commits murder shall be liable to the court.’But I say to you.. (Mat. 5:22)

                          You have heard that it was said, ‘YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY’; but I say to you...(Mat. 5:28)

                          You have heard that it was said, ‘AN EYE FOR AN EYE, AND A TOOTH FOR A TOOTH.“But I say to you, do not resist an evil person; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also (Mat. 5:39)

                          You see, we practice the law as fulfilled and transformed by Christ - not the law in its original form - the law of Christ. We love God and love one another through the Holy Spirit and therefore we won't want to do any of those things - commit adultery, hate our brothers and sisters, etc. Once we have been born again by the power of the Spirit through faith in Christ, He starts to transform our deepest desires and affections - Walk by the Spirit and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh.

                          It seems to me that you wish Jesus had said that he came to abolish the Law and the Prophets
                          I specifically said "He came to fulfill the law and usher in the New Covenant"..

                          but he said he came to fulfill it, in contrast with abolishing it. To fulfill the law is a rabbinic term that meant to interpret it in the way that it was meant to be understood, to add meaning to it, or to fill it up with meaning. To abolish the law meant to interpret it in a way that undermines it or takes away from its meaning. A yoke is another rabbinic term that referred to a rabbi’s interpretation and traditions for how they thought the Torah should be understood and followed.
                          I'm weary of Rabbinic teaching as the modern Rabbi's who reject Christ are descendants of the Pharisees who likewise rejected Christ. Jesus warned His disciples to be on guard against the yeast of the Pharisees, which meant their teaching. "How is it that you do not understand that I did not speak to you concerning bread? But beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees. Then they understood that He did not say to beware of the leaven of bread, but of the teaching of the Pharisees and Sadducees. (Mat. 16:11-12).

                          The Pharisees added their own traditions, but over time they had perverted what was supposed to be a delight to keep (Psalms 1:2, and the rest of the Psalms, but 119 in particular shows the correct attitude) and turned it into a legalistic burden that was a heavy yoke:

                          Matthew 23:4 They tie up heavy, cumbersome loads and put them on other people’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.

                          Acts 15:10 Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear?

                          So when Jesus said his yoke was easy and his burden was light, he was saying that his interpretation of the Torah was easy to understand and to follow. When he said that he came to fulfill the law, he was saying that he came to teach us how to correctly understand how the Torah and how to follow it. As I said with Romans 9:30-32a, the problem was not that they were following the Torah, but that they were following it in the wrong way, as if it were by works rather than by faith.
                          The core issue, of course, is that they failed to put their faith in Christ: "Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me." (John 14:6). If they had followed the law and r4ightly understood its place - they would have realized: "the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith." (Gal.3:24).

                          Note that Jesus clearly warned that those who taught against keeping the Torah would be called least in the kingdom of heaven. Also note that the law is not the same as the Old Covenant.
                          I certainly don't teach "against Torah" rather I see its proper place in redemptive history through the perspective of Christ's finished work on the cross and the New Covenant.

                          Paul was not denying that there were Jews, Greeks, slaves, free men, males, or females, but that there is a relevant distinction in regards to all being one in Christ Jesus. He was also not saying that there is no relevant distinction.
                          Paul is saying that in Christ we are a third humanity, a new creation, and there is no room for a superiority complex. "For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love." (Gal. 5:6). We are not in a spiritual race against our own brother's and sisters - we are called to love and uplift one another.

                          Romans 3:1-2a Then what advantage has the Jew? Or what is the value of circumcision? 2 Much in every way.
                          "What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin" (Rom. 3:9).

                          But yes, they were entrusted with the oracles of God, and salvation is from the Jews indeed. I am thankful that God chose the Jewish people as a vehicle to bring about His redemptive purposes for the world through Christ. Yet it is a shame that so many Jews rejected their Messiah and became enemies to the gospel - yet we are called to love our enemies and preach the truth to them in love, so that they may be saved.

                          My point of bring up the traditions of men was that the way he had been trained how to keep the Torah was a way that overly focused on outward performance, not on faith (again with Romans 9:30-32a). This was following the Torah in the wrong way, which is in part what Jesus said he came to correct.
                          Paul explicitly stated that He was blameless in terms of Torah righteousness - yet he counted it all as loss compared to knowing Christ Jesus.

                          Ephesians 2:8-10 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
                          Amen.

                          Verse 8 is huge and is what Paul has been missing because he had been trying to become justified through his own effort. But we can’t forget that verse 10 brings us back to doing good works by obeying God’s instructions. We are saved by grace through faith for the purpose of obediently following God’s Torah. Righteousness, sanctification, and obedience are all closely connected
                          "by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace," (Eph. 2:15). If we are in Christ through faith in His blood, we are a new creation - the third humanity - where there is neither Jew nor Gentile, we are all one in Christ. We were once all dead in our sins, but God made us alive with Christ through the washing and regeneration of the Holy Spirit where there is freedom to love God and others from a pure heart and new nature - this is the New Covenant - this is what we are under - the grace of God that enables and transforms us to live Holy lives pleasing to God through genuine faith in Christ, alone. That genuine faith will produce good works and deeds. The purpose of Torah is fulfilled - "But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor." (Gal. 3:24).

                          Romans 6:15-19 What then? Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means!16 Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves,[c] you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, 18 and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness.19 I am speaking in human terms, because of your natural limitations. For just as you once presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness leading to sanctification.
                          Ah, so you agree that we are not under law? Good, to further the point, Romans 7: 4-6: "Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, so that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were aroused by the Law, were at work in the members of our body to bear fruit for death. But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter."

                          Yes, yes, I am aware that we are released from the penalty of the law -but not merely - because Christ has arrived, one greater than the law - that to which the law pointed to..Ah, so we are free to sin? No, not if we have been regenerated by the Spirit and born again, and walk in the power of the Spirit - "But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law." (Gal. 5:18). "And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires." (Gal. 5:24).

                          Indeed, that is what I see as well, but I do not see him as someone who taught contradictory things to different groups of people, who taught things he didn’t believe were true, or who lied in court.
                          Yes, as stated, Paul was Jewish. Yet in light of Christ and the surpassing greatness of the New Covenant - his Jewishness was no longer the center of attraction - it was Christ, and Him crucified. He used his Jewishness to make in-roads for the gospel - "to the Jews I became as Jew".

                          Again fulfilling the law refers to interpreting it in a way that it was meant to be understood
                          So the New Covenant is essentially a proper interpretation of the law? I don't think so.

                          and the law/instructions/Torah of Christ is the way that he taught it should be understood and followed. A correct understanding of the Torah leads people to bear one another’s so in doing so they are following the Torah in the way that Christ taught.
                          So all we really need to do is follow the Torah as interpreted by Christ? Where does the new birth/creation come into the picture here?

                          Matthew 22:36-40 But when the Pharisees heard that he had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered together. 35 And one of them, a lawyer, asked him a question to test him. 36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” 37 And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. 38 This is the great and first commandment. 39 And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. 40 On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.”
                          Yup.

                          In others following all of the Law and the Prophets is what it looks like to keep these two commands.
                          Where would the New Covenant and Apostolic teachings fit in for these people?

                          Before the cross:
                          "But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law, so that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons." (Gal. 4:4-5).

                          After the cross: "After this, Jesus, knowing that all things had already been accomplished, to fulfill the Scripture, said, "I am thirsty." A jar full of sour wine was standing there; so they put a sponge full of the sour wine upon a branch of hyssop and brought it up to His mouth. Therefore when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, "It is finished!" And He bowed His head and gave up His spirit."

                          We are under the New Covenant purchased by the blood of Christ. We are under the Apostolic teachings on the New Covenant. We are empowered by the Spirit to obey Christ and His commandments - to love God and love others, and we are called to preach the gospel to Jew and Gentile - for it is the power of God unto salvation for all who believe.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Soyeong View Post
                            The Festival of Unleavened Bread is a week-long festival that is concurrent with Passover. In regard to Genesis 12:48, it prohibits uncircumcised Gentiles from eating of the Passover lamb.
                            Look we're all mixed up I said Leviticus 12:48 you said Genesis, it's actually Exodus 12:48 haha.

                            But yeah, he was talking about Jesus as the Passover, however since he was addressing both circumcised and uncircumcised such as in 1 Corinthians 7:18, it's not clear if he was talking to both or it was understood only to be for Jews. So to me that one's inconclusive.

                            Originally posted by Soyeong View Post
                            Genesis 17 is talking about a covenant between God and Abraham and his generations.
                            The circumcision covenant was binding for Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, God remembered in Exodus and sought to kill Moses over it.

                            Originally posted by Soyeong View Post
                            Deuteronomy 23:15 “You shall not give up to his master a slave[a] who has escaped from his master to you.16 He shall dwell with you, in your midst, in the place that he shall choose within one of your towns, wherever it suits him. You shall not wrong him.

                            This doesn’t sound like they were told to convert or get out.
                            Genesis 17 is about slaves you buy, but if someone runs off to join the Jews it may be expected he's open to circumcision anyway.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Scawly, can you acknowledge that there were oral laws that contained different interpretations and traditions in regard to the way that different rabbis taught the Torah was supposed to understood and followed? And that Jesus was concerned with teaching them the right way to understand and follow the Torah? These interpretations and traditions became codified in the 2nd century in what became known as the Mishna.

                              Some of these traditions were good or mundane and Jesus followed some of them, but others became a burden to keep. For instance, in their zeal to keep the commandment not to work on the Sabbath, the rabbis meticulously defined what counted as work and then set a fence around that to prevent anyone from accidentally breaking the command. What started off with good intentions ended up perverting what was supposed to be a day of God-ordained rest by turning into something that was a chore to keep.

                              Mark 7:1-8 Now when the Pharisees gathered to him, with some of the scribes who had come from Jerusalem, 2 they saw that some of his disciples ate with hands that were defiled, that is, unwashed. 3 (For the Pharisees and all the Jews do not eat unless they wash their hands properly,[a] holding to the tradition of the elders, 4 and when they come from the marketplace, they do not eat unless they wash.[b] And there are many other traditions that they observe, such as the washing of cups and pots and copper vessels and dining couches.[c]) 5 And the Pharisees and the scribes asked him, “Why do your disciples not walk according to the tradition of the elders, but eat with defiled hands?” 6 And he said to them, “Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written,

                              “‘This people honors me with their lips,
                              but their heart is far from me;
                              7 in vain do they worship me,
                              teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’
                              8 You leave the commandment of God and hold to the tradition of men.”

                              What is happening in verse 3 a description of an oral law that is not found anywhere in the Torah. Jesus criticized them in verse 8 for giving their traditions for the way they thought the Torah should be followed a higher priority than following the Torah itself. So they were following the Torah in the wrong way and Jesus was trying to set them straight.
                              "Faith is nothing less than the will to keep one's mind fixed precisely on what reason has discovered to it." - Edward Feser

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Soyeong View Post
                                Scawly, can you acknowledge that there were oral laws that contained different interpretations and traditions in regard to the way that different rabbis taught the Torah was supposed to understood and followed? And that Jesus was concerned with teaching them the right way to understand and follow the Torah? These interpretations and traditions became codified in the 2nd century in what became known as the Mishna.

                                Some of these traditions were good or mundane and Jesus followed some of them, but others became a burden to keep. For instance, in their zeal to keep the commandment not to work on the Sabbath, the rabbis meticulously defined what counted as work and then set a fence around that to prevent anyone from accidentally breaking the command. What started off with good intentions ended up perverting what was supposed to be a day of God-ordained rest by turning into something that was a chore to keep.

                                Mark 7:1-8 Now when the Pharisees gathered to him, with some of the scribes who had come from Jerusalem, 2 they saw that some of his disciples ate with hands that were defiled, that is, unwashed. 3 (For the Pharisees and all the Jews do not eat unless they wash their hands properly,[a] holding to the tradition of the elders, 4 and when they come from the marketplace, they do not eat unless they wash.[b] And there are many other traditions that they observe, such as the washing of cups and pots and copper vessels and dining couches.[c]) 5 And the Pharisees and the scribes asked him, “Why do your disciples not walk according to the tradition of the elders, but eat with defiled hands?” 6 And he said to them, “Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written,

                                “‘This people honors me with their lips,
                                but their heart is far from me;
                                7 in vain do they worship me,
                                teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’
                                8 You leave the commandment of God and hold to the tradition of men.”

                                What is happening in verse 3 a description of an oral law that is not found anywhere in the Torah. Jesus criticized them in verse 8 for giving their traditions for the way they thought the Torah should be followed a higher priority than following the Torah itself. So they were following the Torah in the wrong way and Jesus was trying to set them straight.
                                I think the bolded is a fundamental error. ""You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me; and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life." (Jn. 5:40).

                                Jesus is concerned, then and now, about people recognizing their utter inability and sinfulness, and therefore commands they come to Him for salvation. This means placing their faith in His shed blood for the forgiveness of their sins. He is the way, the truth, and the life - and no one - no one - comes to the Father except by Him.

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