A little perspective on credibility

[bar Jonah]

[I didn't write this, so don't give me the credit.]


A little perspective and a history lesson

The Hollywood group is at it again. Holding anti-war rallies, screaming about the Bush Administration, running ads in major newspapers, defaming the President and his Cabinet every chance they get, to anyone and everyone who will listen. They publicly defile them and call them names like "stupid", "morons", and "idiots". Jessica Lange went so far as to tell a crowd in Spain that she hates President Bush and is embarrassed to be an American.

So, just how ignorant are these people who are running the country? Let's look at the biographies of these "stupid", "ignorant", "moronic" leaders, and then at the celebrities who are castigating them:

President George W. Bush: Received a Bachelors Degree from Yale University and an MBA from Harvard Business School. He served as an F-102 pilot for the Texas Air National Guard. He began his career in the oil and gas business in Midland in 1975 and worked in the energy industry until 1986. He was elected Governor on November 8, 1994, with 53.5 percent of the vote. In a historic re-election victory, he became the first Texas Governor to be elected to consecutive four-year terms on November 3, 1998 winning 68.6 percent of the vote. In 1998 Governor Bush won 49 percent of the Hispanic vote, 27 percent of the African-American vote, 27 percent of Democrats and 65 percent of women. He won more Texas counties, 240 of 254, than any modern Republican other than Richard Nixon in 1972 and is the first Republican gubernatorial candidate to win the heavily Hispanic and Democratic border counties of El Paso, Cameron and Hidalgo. (Someone began circulating a false story about his I.Q. being lower than any other President. If you believed it, you might want to go to URBANLEGENDS.COM and see the truth.)

Vice President Dick Cheney: Earned a B.A. in 1965 and a M.A. in 1966, both in political science. Two years later, he won an American Political Science Association congressional fellowship. One of Vice President Cheney's primary duties is to share with individuals, members of Congress and foreign leaders, President Bush's vision to strengthen our economy, secure our homeland and win the War on Terrorism. In his official role as President of the Senate, Vice President Cheney regularly goes to Capital Hill to meet with Senators and members of the House of Representatives to work on the Administration's legislative goals. In his travels as Vice President, he has seen first hand the great demands the war on terrorism is placing on the men and women of our military, and he is proud of the tremendous job they are doing for the United States of America.

Secretary of State Colin Powell: Educated in the New York City public schools, graduating from the City College of New York (CCNY), where he earned a Bachelor's Degree in geology. He also participated in ROTC at CCNY and received a commission as an Army second lieutenant upon graduation in June 1958. His further academic achievements include a Master of Business Administration Degree from George Washington University. Secretary Powell is the recipient of numerous U.S. and foreign military awards and decorations. Secretary Powell's civilian awards include two Presidential Medals of Freedom, the President's Citizens Medal, the Congressional Gold Medal, the Secretary of State Distinguished Service Medal, and the Secretary of Energy Distinguished Service Medal. Several schools and other institutions have been named in his honor and he holds honorary degrees from universities and colleges across the country. (Note: He retired as Four Star General in the United States Army)

Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld: Attended Princeton University on Scholarship (AB, 1954) and served in the U.S. Navy (1954-57) as a Naval aviator; Congressional Assistant to Rep. Robert Griffin (R-MI), 1957-59; U.S. Representative, Illinois, 1962-69; Assistant to the President, Director of the Office of Economic Opportunity, Director of the Cost of Living Council, 1969-74; U.S. Ambassador to NATO, 1973-74; head of Presidential Transition Team, 1974; Assistant to the President, Director of White House Office of Operations, White House Chief of Staff, 1974-77; Secretary of Defense, 1975-77.

Secretary of Homeland Security Tom Ridge: Raised in a working class family in veterans' public housing in Erie. He earned a scholarship to Harvard, graduating with honors in 1967. After his first year at The Dickinson School of Law, he was drafted into the U.S. Army, where he served as an infantry staff sergeant in Vietnam, earning the Bronze Star for Valor. After returning to Pennsylvania, he earned his Law Degree and was in private practice before becoming Assistant District Attorney in Erie County. He was elected to Congress in 1982. He was the first enlisted Vietnam combat veteran elected to the U.S. House, and was overwhelmingly re-elected six times.

National Security Advisor Condoleezza Rice: Earned her Bachelor's Degree in Political Science, Cum Laude and Phi Beta Kappa, from the University of Denver in 1974; her Master's from the University of Notre Dame in 1975; and her Ph.D. from the Graduate School of International Studies at the University of Denver in 1981. (Note: Rice enrolled at the University of Denver at the age of 15, graduating at 19 with a Bachelor's Degree in Political Science (Cum Laude). She earned a Master's Degree at the University of Notre Dame and a Doctorate from the University of Denver's Graduate School of International Studies. Both of her advanced degrees are also in Political Science.) She is a Fellow of the American Academy of Arts and Sciences and has been awarded Honorary Doctorates from Morehouse College in 1991, the University of Alabama in 1994, and the University of Notre Dame in 1995. At Stanford, she has been a member of the Center for International Security and Arms Control, a Senior Fellow of the Institute for International Studies, and a Fellow (by courtesy) of the Hoover Institution. Her books include Germany Unified and Europe Transformed (1995) with Philip Zelikow, The Gorbachev Era (1986) with Alexander Dallin, and Uncertain Allegiance: The Soviet Union and the Czechoslovak Army (1984). She also has written numerous articles on Soviet and East European foreign and defense policy, and has addressed audiences in settings ranging from the U.S. Ambassador's Residence in Moscow to the Commonwealth Club to the 1992 and 2000 Republican National Conventions. From 1989 through March 1991, the period of German reunification and the final days of the Soviet Union, she served in the Bush Administration as Director, and then Senior Director, of Soviet and East European Affairs in the National Security Council, and a Special Assistant to the President for National Security Affairs. In 1986, while an international affairs fellow of the Council on Foreign Relations, she served as Special Assistant to the Director of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. In 1997, she served on the Federal Advisory Committee on Gender -- Integrated Training in the Military. She was a member of the boards of directors for the Chevron Corporation, the Charles Schwab Corporation, the William and Flora Hewlett Foundation, the University of Notre Dame, the International Advisory Council of J.P. Morgan and the San Francisco Symphony Board of Governors. She was a Founding Board member of the Center for a New Generation, an educational support fund for schools in East Palo Alto and East Menlo Park, California and was Vice President of the Boys and Girls Club of the Peninsula. In addition, her past board service has encompassed such organizations as Transamerica Corporation, Hewlett Packard, the Carnegie Corporation, Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, The Rand Corporation, the National Council for Soviet and East European Studies, the Mid-Peninsula Urban Coalition and KQED, public broadcasting for San Francisco. Born November 14, 1954 in Birmingham, Alabama, she resides in Washington, D.C.

So who are these celebrities? What is their education? What is their experience in affairs of State or in National Security? While I will defend to the death their right to express their opinions, I think that if they are going to call into question the intelligence of our leaders, we should also have all the facts on their educations and background:

Barbra Streisand: Completed high school Career: Singing and acting

Cher: Dropped out of school in 9th grade. Career: Singing and acting

Martin Sheen: Flunked exam to enter University of Dayton. Career: Acting

Jessica Lange: Dropped out college mid-freshman year. Career: Acting

Alec Baldwin: Dropped out of George Washington U. after scandal. Career: Acting

Julia Roberts: Completed high school. Career: Acting

Sean Penn: Completed High school. Career: Acting

Susan Sarandon: Degree in Drama from Catholic University of America in Washington, D.C. Career: Acting

Ed Asner: Completed High school. Career: Acting

George Clooney: Dropped out of University of Kentucky. Career: Acting

Michael Moore: Dropped out first year University of Michigan. Career: Movie Director

Sarah Jessica Parker: Completed High School. Career: Acting

Jennifer Anniston: Completed High School. Career: Acting

Mike Farrell: Completed High school. Career: Acting

Janeane Garofelo: Dropped out of College. Career: Stand up comedienne

Larry Hagman: Attended Bard College for one year. Career: Acting

While comparing the education and experience of these two groups, we should also remember that President Bush and his cabinet are briefed daily, even hourly, on the War on Terror and threats to our security. They are privy to information gathered around the world concerning the Middle East, the threats to America, the intentions of terrorists and terrorist-supporting governments. They are in constant communication with the CIA, the FBI, Interpol, NATO, The United Nations, our own military, and that of our allies around the world. We cannot simply believe that we have full knowledge of the threats because we watch CNN!! We cannot believe that we are in any way as informed as our leaders.

These celebrities have no intelligence-gathering agents, no fact-finding groups, no insight into the minds of those who would destroy our country. They only have a deep-seated hatred for all things Republican. By nature, and no one knows quite why, the Hollywood elitists detest Conservative views and anything that supports or uplifts the United States of America. The silence was deafening from the Left when Bill Clinton bombed a pharmaceutical factory outside of Khartoum, or when he attacked the Bosnian Serbs in 1995 and 1999. He bombed Serbia itself to get Slobodan Milosevic out of Kosovo, and not a single peace rally was held. When our Rangers were ambushed in Somalia and 18 young American lives were lost, not a peep was heard from Hollywood. Yet now, after our nation has been attacked on its own soil, after 3,000 Americans were killed, by freedom-hating terrorists, while going about their routine lives, they want to hold rallies against the war. Why the change? Because an honest, God-fearing Republican sits in the White House.

Another irony is that in 1987, when Ronald Reagan was in office, the Hollywood group aligned themselves with disarmament groups like SANE, FREEZE and PEACE ACTION, urging our own government to disarm and freeze the manufacturing of any further nuclear weapons, in order to promote world peace. It is curious that now, even after we have heard all the evidence that Saddam Hussein has chemical, biological and is very close to obtaining nuclear weapons, their is no cry from this group for HIM to disarm. They believe we should leave him alone in his quest for these weapons of mass destruction, even though it is certain that these deadly weapons will eventually be used against us in our own cities.

So why the hype out of Hollywood? Could these celebrities believe that since they draw such astronomical salaries, they are entitled to also determine the course of our Nation? That they can make viable decisions concerning war and peace? Did Michael Moore have the backing of the Nation when he recently thanked France, on our behalf, for being a "good enough friend to tell us we were wrong"? I know for certain he was not speaking for me. Does Sean Penn fancy himself a Diplomat, in going to Iraq when we are just weeks away from war? Does he believe that his High School Diploma gives him the knowledge (and the right) to go to a country that is controlled by a maniacal dictator, and speak on behalf of the American people? Or is it the fact that he pulls in more money per year than the average American worker will see in a lifetime? Does his bank account give him clout?

The ultimate irony is that many of these celebrities have made a shambles of their own lives, with drug abuse, alcoholism, numerous marriages and divorces, scrapes with the law, publicized temper tantrums, etc. How dare they pretend to know what is best for an entire nation! What is even more bizarre is how many people in this country will listen and accept their views, simply because they liked them in a certain movie, or have fond memories of an old television sitcom!

It is time for us, as citizens of the United States, to educate ourselves about the world around us. If future generations are going to enjoy the freedoms that our forefathers bequeathed us, if they are ever to know peace in their own country and their world, to live without fear of terrorism striking in their own cities, we must assure that this nation remains strong. We must make certain that those who would destroy us are made aware of the severe consequences that will befall them.

Yes, it is a wonderful dream to sit down with dictators and terrorists and join hands, singing Kumbaya and talking of world peace. But it is not real. We did not stop Adolf Hitler from taking over the entire continent of Europe by simply talking to him. We sent our best and brightest, with the strength and determination that this Country is known for, and defeated the Nazi regime. President John F. Kennedy did not stop the Soviet ships from unloading their nuclear missiles in Cuba in 1962 with mere words. He stopped them with action, and threat of immediate war if the ships did not turn around. We did not end the Cold War with conferences. It ended with the strong belief of President Ronald Reagan... PEACE through STRENGTH

----

Only a nation as desperate to be loved as the United States would fret about, rather than chuckle over, the Orwellian irony of being lectured to about arrogance by the French and about militarism by the Germans. -- Louis Ruykeyser

[Dee Dee Warren]

I wish I could remember the exact quote.. I will dig it up if I can but it was an observation on American culture on how just because someone can act or play sports we give them automatic credibility in other areas for their opinion. Why?

[Vorkosigan]

Today @ 03:21 PM here
Dee Dee Warren:

I wish I could remember the exact quote.. I will dig it up if I can but it was an observation on American culture on how just because someone can act or play sports we give them automatic credibility in other areas for their opinion. Why?

The author of this piece, and you, Dee, have missed the point. The issue of whether to commit the nation to full-scale war and susbsequent occupation is one of values. No matter how much information you have, it comes down to values. And on those we are all experts.

The issue of credibility comes down to several things, only one of which is educational background and expertise. Another is, of course, one's reputation for truth telling, and another might be general reputation for ethical behavior. On that score, Cheney & Co. do not score very high.

Vorkosigan

[spl_cadet]

I take it you do not value the removal of widespread torture and rape rooms?

[Vorkosigan]

Today @ 11:34 PM here
spl_cadet:

I take it you do not value the removal of widespread torture and rape rooms?

Sorry. I just have no reply for a comment as dumb as this.

Vorkosigan

[Epoetker]

No matter how much information you have, it comes down to values. And on those we are all experts.

Uhhh...no we're not. The fact that you can gamely say that everybody's an expert on "values"(which would, if true, seriously "devalue" the term, since Nazi values are as valid as Christian or humanitarian values) shows your appalling willingness to redefine the entire notion of democracy and morality in order to score debating points after you lost the substantive debate a long time ago.

[Vorkosigan]

[Epoetker:
Uhhh...no we're not. The fact that you can gamely say that everybody's an expert on "values"(which would, if true, seriously "devalue" the term, since Nazi values are as valid as Christian or humanitarian values) shows your appalling willingness to redefine the entire notion of democracy and morality in order to score debating points after you lost the substantive debate a long time ago.

Ah, your strategy is when destroyed, to claim victory and theneat.

'pet, is the decision to go war a calculus of facts or of values? Simple question.

Is it your position that in a democratic society, some citizens should be ignored when formulating policy? Or what? And what principles do we use to determine who speaks and who does not? And if a person is not an expert on her own values, who is?

Also, I am still waiting for any argument to suggest that we ought to levy full-scale war right now as opposed to any time in the past (when Hussein was our good buddy whom Rumsfeld called a strong ally of the US) and in the future?

Also, you have yet to address the fact that this war has been part of NeoCon planning since at least 1998, as the PNAC letter shows. So any claim that you make regarding anything that has happened since that time is completely invalidated.

Let me know when you have actual arguments, 'pet.

Vorkosigan

[Epoetker]

'pet, is the decision to go war a calculus of facts or of values? Simple question.

The decision is an intersection of facts, values, and strategy. It is RIGHT, PRUDENT, and USEFUL to knock out tinpot dictators who support terrorists.

Is it your position that in a democratic society, some citizens should be ignored when formulating policy?

Yes. The ones who couldn't form a coherent policy position if it came up and published a letter for them.

And what principles do we use to determine who speaks and who does not?

We let all speak. We just choose to ignore the people spouting

And if a person is not an expert on her own values, who is?

Who the heck cares about whether a person knows about his personal values or not? What we're interested in is how conducive these values are to securing the blessings of liberty, providing for the common defense, promoting the general welfare, etc. The value-neutral position is the mindless position.

Also, I am still waiting for any argument to suggest that we ought to levy full-scale war right now as opposed to any time in the past (when Hussein was our good buddy whom Rumsfeld called a strong ally of the US) and in the future?

Made and repeatedly evaded on other threads. You are truly a student of Farrell Till.

Also, you have yet to address the fact that this war has been part of NeoCon planning since at least 1998, as the PNAC letter shows. So any claim that you make regarding anything that has happened since that time is completely invalidated.

What, you mean some guys had a great strategic idea in 1998, let it sit for a while under the last years of the anemic Clinton administration and the tippy-toeing pre-9-11 GWB years, and was found to be MORE relevant and MORE true after the towers fell? Spare me. You're only making us neocons more popular.

[Solly]

03-22-2003 @ 03:14 PM located here
RightIdea:


A little perspective and a history lesson


Barbra Streisand: Completed high school
Cher: Dropped out of school in 9th grade.
Martin Sheen: Flunked exam to enter University of Dayton.
Jessica Lange: Dropped out college mid-freshman year.
Alec Baldwin: Dropped out of George Washington U. after scandal.
Julia Roberts: Completed high school.
Sean Penn: Completed High school.
Susan Sarandon: Degree in Drama from Catholic University of America in Washington, D.C.
Ed Asner: Completed High school.
George Clooney: Dropped out of University of Kentucky.
Michael Moore: Dropped out first year University of Michigan.
Sarah Jessica Parker: Completed High School.
Jennifer Anniston: Completed High School.
Mike Farrell: Completed High school.
Janeane Garofelo: Dropped out of College.
Larry Hagman: Attended Bard College for one year.

Warning: 250 million people like these, voted for people like these:

President George W. Bush:

Vice President Dick Cheney:
Secretary of State Colin Powell:
Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld:
Secretary of Homeland Security Tom Ridge:
National Security Advisor Condoleezza Rice:

Should this country be invaded and liberated from this disaster?

03-22-2003 @ 03:21 PM located here
Dee Dee Warren:

I wish I could remember the exact quote.. I will dig it up if I can but it was an observation on American culture on how just because someone can act or play sports we give them automatic credibility in other areas for their opinion. Why?

It's part of the celebrity culture. What is worse, is when whole programmes are given over to the opinions of dock workers, taxi drivers, and child minders, giving everybody their fifteen minutes of fame on prime time TV or Radio.

[Vorkosigan]

Epoetker:
The decision is an intersection of facts, values, and strategy.

Values, like I said. Thanks, 'pet.

It is RIGHT, PRUDENT, and USEFUL to knock out tinpot dictators who support terrorists.

...and supplant them with our own after an illegal war.

Who the heck cares about whether a person knows about his personal values or not? What we're interested in is how conducive these values are to securing the blessings of liberty, providing for the common defense, promoting the general welfare, etc. The value-neutral position is the mindless position.

Who's spouting that position? It appears you've fallen in love with your own rhetoric.

Made and repeatedly evaded on other threads. You are truly a student of Farrell Till.

No, you've not supplied even the slightest evidence that there is any threat to anyone. As you've conceded, Iraq is impoverished, overflown by enemy aircraft, and equipped with outdated equipment. No threat there.

What, you mean some guys had a great strategic idea in 1998, let it sit for a while under the last years of the anemic Clinton administration and the tippy-toeing pre-9-11 GWB years, and was found to be MORE relevant and MORE true after the towers fell? Spare me. You're only making us neocons more popular.

No, the idea was to occupy Iraq as part of a longer-range strategy to undermine OPEC and various other things. WMDs are a convenient excuse, ignored when our current allies like Pakistan behave in exactly the same way, or when in the hands of nations that would actually require real fighting, although the US has apparently badly underestimated Iraqi resistance. There is nothing that Iraq is doing that the government of Pakistan has not. Apparently only tin-pot dictators sitting on oil wells are worth knocking over. The actual dictators -- the Pakistanis and Saudis -- who dealt with the 9-11 crowd are ignored.

BTW, you know the Saudis were pursuing a nuke weapon from 1975 on, according to Saudi defectors, in violation of the treaties they signed, and they contributed billions to Iraq's program until 1990. Saudi Arabia is a police state where torture is used and the Saudi Royal family is A LOT richer than Hussein, and the Saudis fund and run school programs specifically attacking the US in many Islamic countries. Individual Saudis bankroll terrorism too, according to State Department reports in the mid-1990s, and have even once prevented the US from arresting a terrorist on Saudi soil. So how come I don't hear you screaming for the head of the House of Saud? Could it be that the reasons for attacking Iraq are none of the above? That instead, they relate to the Great Game in Cental Asia and the Middle East?

Vorkosigan

[Ryokan]

Alot of people were advocating getting rid of Bin Laden in 1998 too, Vork (can I shorten your name without offense). We should have listened to them then, and maybe we should have listened about Iraq, too.

[bar Jonah]

Today @ 05:55 AM located here
Vorkosigan:

It is RIGHT, PRUDENT, and USEFUL to knock out tinpot dictators who support terrorists.

...and supplant them with our own after an illegal war.

How on earth is it "illegal?"

No, you've not supplied even the slightest evidence that there is any threat to anyone. As you've conceded, Iraq is impoverished, overflown by enemy aircraft, and equipped with outdated equipment. No threat there.

Vorkosigan

I hate to be the harbinger of bad news for you, shipmate, but the question of weapons of mass destruction is no longer debatable. We have captured a "huge," major chemical weapons factory in Iraq. Everybody knows Iraq's military ISN'T the threat. Who said it was? Their threat comes from their willingness to use chemical weapons against innocent people in Saddam's own country... and against their perceived enemies, including our ally, Israel.

http://worldnetdaily.com/news/articl...TICLE_ID=31679

[Solly]

Ah ha ha ha ha

Read your sources RI

"But U.S. officials later backed away from the initial reports, calling them premature.

"It is a place we believe might have been a chemical weapons storage factory years ago, but nothing current," a U.S. Central Command, or CENTCOM, official told Fox News. "Checking it out, no great belief it'll turn out as initially reported."

[bar Jonah]

Today @ 08:57 AM located here
Solly:

Ah ha ha ha ha

Read your sources RI

"But U.S. officials later backed away from the initial reports, calling them premature.

"It is a place we believe might have been a chemical weapons storage factory years ago, but nothing current," a U.S. Central Command, or CENTCOM, official told Fox News. "Checking it out, no great belief it'll turn out as initially reported."

Huh! They updated the story in the last hour or two. The story did NOT initially say that. I stand corrected.

[Solly]

Darn that reality.

No hard feelings.