Plotting Nicea III Could Be Pope Francis's Masterstroke

[TimelessTheist]

You can get a high status job without having to fake normalcy with a sham wife.

.........what?

[robrecht]

1) Well, yes, the post-pubescent pedophilia scandal was present in the Church during the sexual revolution. Then again, I would say the sexual revolution, leading to deviants infiltrating the priesthood, was responsible for that one, not priestly celibacy.

2) Unless you can actually find a correlation, I would say no. In the meantime, I could list a couple studies that shows there 'is' no correlation.

I would be interested in seeing the studies you are speaking of. Do they have to do with pedophilia or ephebophilia or both? Is there any good data on how many priests in the Catholic church are gay, openly or otherwise? I think that would be the most difficult part of conducting such a study. I usually say 'about 50%', plus or minus 49%, because I've never seen any conclusive numbers on this and most church officials would never even countenance speaking about this. One gay religious told me he thought it was 80%. I figured that was an exaggeration, but did not have any data to cite otherwise.

[One Bad Pig]

Wow, this is fantastic news. I always knew Francis had it in him.

Plotting Nicea III Could Be Pope Francis's Masterstroke

Get your tickets now!

I can't say I'm impressed with Ms. Moss' handling of the facts. The meeting will be purely symbolic; the schism is too deep and long-standing to be healed that quickly. I would love to have the schism healed, but I don't think Rome is willing to making the changes necessary for real unification (no, ending priestly celibacy isn't one of them; that was around long before the split).

[Darth Executor]

.........what?

I can't dumb it down any further than that, sorry.

[robrecht]

I can't say I'm impressed with Ms. Moss' handling of the facts. The meeting will be purely symbolic; the schism is too deep and long-standing to be healed that quickly. I would love to have the schism healed, but I don't think Rome is willing to making the changes necessary for real unification (no, ending priestly celibacy isn't one of them; that was around long before the split).

Early on, some popes already admitted they never should have added the filioque to the creed, and others have explained it as nothing more than a Latin clarification of what is implicit in Greek. I don't recall the details of this explanation, but we could look it up and see if we think it has any validity. Vatican II already recognized the collegiality of bishops and started to, perhaps only implicitly, recognize a higher authority of the council and pope than the pope alone. Aside from the history of wars, which perhaps both sides realize were horrendous and should be willing to forgive, the biggest ecclesiological or theological difficulties I'm aware of are papal infallibility and papal supremacy, ie, understanding papal primacy in terms of administrative authority of the bishop of Rome outside his own archdiocease. Perhaps, I am the eternal optimist, but I actually believe it is feasible for a pope to retreat on these points, but not many share this optimism. I have seen some extreme statements on the part of some who are adamant in their opposition to reunion. I'm sure there are there other issues I'm unaware. Such as?

[One Bad Pig]

Early on, some popes already admitted they never should have added the filioque to the creed, and others have explained it as nothing more than a Latin clarification of what is implicit in Greek. I don't recall the details of this explanation, but we could look it up and see if we think it has any validity. Vatican II already recognized the collegiality of bishops and started to, perhaps only implicitly, recognize a higher authority of the council and pope than the pope alone. Aside from the history of wars, which perhaps both sides realize were horrendous and should be willing to forgive, the biggest ecclesiological or theological difficulties I'm aware of are papal infallibility and papal supremacy, ie, understanding papal primacy in terms of administrative authority of the bishop of Rome outside his own archdiocease. Perhaps, I am the eternal optimist, but I actually believe it is feasible for a pope to retreat on these points, but not many share this optimism. I have seen some extreme statements on the part of some who are adamant in their opposition to reunion. I'm sure there are there other issues I'm unaware. Such as?

There's a lot of historical distrust due to the way the last couple attempts at reunification were handled. A declaration of reunification will not be sufficient without general lay acceptance of the details. In certain areas there has been doctrinal divergence since the schism. The dogma of the Immaculate Conception may well be a sticking point, as well as other developments of Augustinian theology (which never had much reception in the East to begin with). I am hopeful of a reunion with the Copts in my lifetime; Rome is rather less a likelihood, I'm afraid.

[robrecht]

There's a lot of historical distrust due to the way the last couple attempts at reunification were handled. A declaration of reunification will not be sufficient without general lay acceptance of the details. In certain areas there has been doctrinal divergence since the schism. The dogma of the Immaculate Conception may well be a sticking point, as well as other developments of Augustinian theology (which never had much reception in the East to begin with). I am hopeful of a reunion with the Copts in my lifetime; Rome is rather less a likelihood, I'm afraid.

I need to learn more about the Eastern Orthodox theologies of original sin, but I think the Roman Catholic dogma might actually make better sense within the Orthodox view than in the traditional Augustinian or popular view of concupisence passed on through sexual intercourse, but this is just about the only explicit example of papal infallibiilty, which is the bigger sticking point, I think. This may just be my Catholic bias, but I have the impression that many of the Eastern Orthodox laity and clergy are much more opposed to reunification with Rome than vice versa. Is that also your impression?

[One Bad Pig]

I need to learn more about the Eastern Orthodox theologies of original sin, but I think the Roman Catholic dogma might actually make better sense within the Orthodox view than in the traditional Augustinian or popular view of concupisence passed on through sexual intercourse, but this is just about the only explicit example of papal infallibiilty, which is the bigger sticking point, I think.

As I understand it, because of Adam's fall we are predisposed to sin, but we are not guilty of his sin. I also had in mind Anselm's development of the Atonement; the East is pretty solidly Christus Victor. Papal Infallibility is undoubtedly the biggest sticking point in subsequent doctrinal development.

This may just be my Catholic bias, but I have the impression that many of the Eastern Orthodox laity and clergy are much more opposed to reunification with Rome than vice versa. Is that also your impression?

In general, I'd say that's accurate. On the other hand, Eastern Rite Catholics have often been treated as less than fully Catholic by their Latin Rite brethren, particularly by those in authority (which is why my diocese is Orthodox).

[robrecht]

As I understand it, because of Adam's fall we are predisposed to sin, but we are not guilty of his sin. I also had in mind Anselm's development of the Atonement; the East is pretty solidly Christus Victor. Papal Infallibility is undoubtedly the biggest sticking point in subsequent doctrinal development.

In general, I'd say that's accurate. On the other hand, Eastern Rite Catholics have often been treated as less than fully Catholic by their Latin Rite brethren, particularly by those in authority (which is why my diocese is Orthodox).

Anselm's theory of the atonement is much, much, much more of an issue with the Protestant West than with Rome.

[foudroyant]

No, I'm sure it would not be, 'though they probably would not mind some reverential words about Mary. As I said to Darth, please do not derail this thread from the topic of the proposed synod in Nicea in 2025.

I am not derailing it. Muslims deny the Trinity. Thus they do not worship the same God as described in the Bible.


so that all will honor the Son even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him. (John 5:23, NASB)

Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also. (1 John 2:23, NASB)

[robrecht]

I am not derailing it. Muslims deny the Trinity. Thus they do not worship the same God as described in the Bible.

so that all will honor the Son even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him. (John 5:23, NASB)

Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also. (1 John 2:23, NASB)

This thread is not about Muslims. It is about the proposed synod between Catholics and Eastern Orthodox Christians. Christians are not Muslims. Got it?

[TimelessTheist]

I can't dumb it down any further than that, sorry.

Well, it 'was' pretty fricken dumb.

[foudroyant]

This thread is not about Muslims. It is about the proposed synod between Catholics and Eastern Orthodox Christians. Christians are not Muslims. Got it?

Connects to Post #3.

Compromise abounds.

[KingsGambit]

Moderator's note: This thread is not about Muslims. Please honor the thread starter's request.

[TimelessTheist]

I would be interested in seeing the studies you are speaking of. Do they have to do with pedophilia or ephebophilia or both? Is there any good data on how many priests in the Catholic church are gay, openly or otherwise? I think that would be the most difficult part of conducting such a study. I usually say 'about 50%', plus or minus 49%, because I've never seen any conclusive numbers on this and most church officials would never even countenance speaking about this. One gay religious told me he thought it was 80%. I figured that was an exaggeration, but did not have any data to cite otherwise.

Well, pedophilia and ephebophilia are both the same thing, essentially. Even if the boy is post-pubescent, he's still underage. Still, though, the main argument against this is that pedophilia among the Catholic clergy is at a significantly lower rate than the general populace, so the argument that celibacy encourages ephebophilia doesn't hold much water.

As for the studies, here's one:

http://www.newsweek.com/priests-comm...er-males-70625

As for the 50% of gay priests, I have to say, that doesn't sound realistic at all, though, as you said, you don't really have any data to back that statistic up.