Originally posted by Carrikature
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Beauty queen reveals she was 'product of rape'
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That's what
- She
Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
- Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)
I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
- Stephen R. Donaldson
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Originally posted by Bill the Cat View PostMy intent was to discuss how better, from a pro-life standpoint, to make the argument against aborting the "rape baby", as it seems the "rape and incest" argument is the main thrust of the other side these days. How can we effectively communicate the fact that pregnancies as products of rape are really no different than pregnancies as products of failed birth control methods? That the child produced by a rape is not responsible for the actions of the biological father, and that it is worth protecting just as much as any other unborn child...
From where I sit, it's far better to start with the stance that it's a horrible circumstance that no one should have to go through, and that any decision is going to be a difficult one. Getting across the fact that, "We get it, this is hard" will be a minor win regardless of the outcome, and it puts you in a much better position from which to help weigh the alternatives. Once that's accepted, you can move past the emotive aspect and into what the baby does or doesn't deserve. Quite frankly, I don't think you (general) will meet much success with most people until you can handle and address their emotional responses. That's a general rule regardless of situation, but it's even more important in situations like this.I'm not here anymore.
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Originally posted by Carrikature View PostThe emotive aspect of a rape pregnancy seems to be pretty clearly different from an 'oops' pregnancy, even if we were to agree that the pregnancies are essentially the same. We both agree that the child produced by either situation is not responsible for the actions of his/her parents. In my opinion, any line of reasoning needs to take that emotive aspect into play. To ignore it, or to downplay it, risks the same alienation that occurs anytime a person thinks someone else "just doesn't understand what it's like".
From where I sit, it's far better to start with the stance that it's a horrible circumstance that no one should have to go through, and that any decision is going to be a difficult one. Getting across the fact that, "We get it, this is hard" will be a minor win regardless of the outcome, and it puts you in a much better position from which to help weigh the alternatives. Once that's accepted, you can move past the emotive aspect and into what the baby does or doesn't deserve. Quite frankly, I don't think you (general) will meet much success with most people until you can handle and address their emotional responses. That's a general rule regardless of situation, but it's even more important in situations like this.
Oh, and I'm sorry I misunderstood your intent here as arguing for aborting "rape babies".That's what
- She
Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
- Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)
I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
- Stephen R. Donaldson
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Originally posted by Bill the Cat View PostI don't think any allowances for emotional responses should come into play when it comes to ending the life of the unborn. I don't mind being despised for wanting to protect innocent human life. It comes with the territory.
What I am saying needs to be dealt with IS the emotional response. We do not allow the rape victim to seek out and kill the rapist, nor someone who reminds them of the rape because they may bear a resemblance to the rapist (for instance). The allowances for the emotional response to the product of the rape should not be any different.
The sad fact of humanity is that our brains aren't engaged when we're running on high emotion. If you reject the emotion out of hand, you only push it higher. How many people do you know that hear "you're wrong" or "you shouldn't feel that way" and simply submit? There may be some, but they're the exception (and even then it depends on who is saying it and how). Most people get more stubborn and less likely to listen.
It's important to distinguish between "you feel that way so it's ok to act on it" and "you feel that way but consider these other things". Neither of us think the former is the right approach. The latter is what I'm suggesting. Handled appropriately, the emotions can be drawn down so that the rational part of the brain can be engaged. I just don't think the argument that the baby would be an additional victim can be fully appreciated until some measure of ratonality can be achieved. I think this is what we both want, anyway: for them to think it through and come to the right decision.
Originally posted by Bill the Cat View PostOh, and I'm sorry I misunderstood your intent here as arguing for aborting "rape babies".I'm not here anymore.
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Originally posted by Carrikature View PostI've no doubt it's true that there's no way to be reminded less. I would actually disagree with Rogue here that it's about the constant reminder. Instead, I'd say that pregnancy through rape is an additional violation.
It appears this is not an appropriate response. I still do not see in your posts any clear rejection of abortion in any case.Last edited by Jedidiah; 06-10-2014, 03:43 PM.Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?
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I love the fact that this woman reveals her origins simply as a reminder to all. Our culture is one of selfishness. I think the pro-choice agenda is very guilty of giving the mentality of react to your emotions as opposed to react out of logic. And we see it everywhere. Abortion is a product of selfishness and fast acting emotional response. (I am not including the population who may be forced/feel forced or have ptsd type reactions as these are a different population all together) Incest arguments may also be found as a potential "genetic engineering" (again forced actions and trauma are excluded as now the argument would take on a new level) Incestuous abortions escpecially among young girls do seem to be "forced" or carried out by the family member especially if the girl is under 16 as opposed to elective. Again another argument all together.
I think one thing that can be done is extending pro-life groups to include a more caring supportive service role. Counseling ought to be provided and the gentle voice of "here's a logical peaceful way" should be louder than the voice of hate and convenience.A happy family is but an earlier heaven.
George Bernard Shaw
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Originally posted by Catholicity View PostOur culture is one of selfishness. I think the pro-choice agenda is very guilty of giving the mentality of react to your emotions as opposed to react out of logic. And we see it everywhere. Abortion is a product of selfishness and fast acting emotional response.
I think one thing that can be done is extending pro-life groups to include a more caring supportive service role. Counseling ought to be provided and the gentle voice of "here's a logical peaceful way" should be louder than the voice of hate and convenience.I'm not here anymore.
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Originally posted by Carrikature View PostPardon my snipping for clarity. The first part I wholly agree with. The second part is exactly what I've been advocating, with the possible quibble that 'extending' might not be the right terminology. Many pro-life groups seem to be the voice of hate, and I don't think a caring and supportive service role can be effective until that changes.
Then again, it is abortion we're talking about. I'm regularly shocked that it's even a topic of discussion.I DENOUNCE DONALD J. TRUMP AND ALL HIS IMMORAL ACTS.
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Originally posted by Christianbookworm View PostWhy are people okay with abortion and not infanticide? Isn't Peter Singer the guy that took prochoice to its logical conclusion by advocating infanticide of newborns? Off topic?I DENOUNCE DONALD J. TRUMP AND ALL HIS IMMORAL ACTS.
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Originally posted by Christianbookworm View PostWhy are people okay with abortion and not infanticide? Isn't Peter Singer the guy that took prochoice to its logical conclusion by advocating infanticide of newborns? Off topic?βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃
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Originally posted by Zymologist View PostI've never understood this.
Then again, it is abortion we're talking about. I'm regularly shocked that it's even a topic of discussion.
You've never understood why they're the voice of hate? Or you've never understood why people think they're the voice of hate?I'm not here anymore.
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Originally posted by Carrikature View PostJust to clarify:
You've never understood why they're the voice of hate? Or you've never understood why people think they're the voice of hate?If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!
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