Does God Hate Sinners?

[seer]

Psalm 5:5

"The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity."

This is a well known proof text claiming that God in fact hates sinners. But there are a few things to keep in mind here.

First:

Christ uses the word hate in the sense of preference. Prefering one thing over another:

Luke 14:26

"If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple."

Now we do not believe that Christ taught us to hate our parents - that would violate the commandment of God. We also know that this deals with preference because Christ explains so in a companion text:

Matthew 10:37

"He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me."

So love and hate could merely be pointing to preference.

Second:


It could also be that Psalm 5:5 is a cursing Psalms. These I do not believe are to be taken as doctrine. They just show the frustration of Godly men with the evil around them

Example:

Psalm 139:21,22

"Do not I hate them, O LORD, that hate thee? and am not I grieved with those that rise up against thee? I hate them with perfect hatred: I count them mine enemies."

This is not how we are to think of our enemies or unbelievers according to Christ. See also Ps.26:5

Or how the Psalmist preay for his enemies:

Psalm 109:8-14

"Let his days be few; and let another take his office.Let his children be fatherless, and his wife a widow. Let his children be continually vagabonds, and beg: let them seek their bread also out of their desolate places.Let the extortioner catch all that he hath; and let the strangers spoil his labour.Let there be none to extend mercy unto him: neither let there be any to favour his fatherless children.Let his posterity be cut off; and in the generation following let their name be blotted out. Let the iniquity of his fathers be remembered with the LORD; and let not the sin of his mother be blotted out."

This again, I believe, does not reflect the mind of Christ, or how God would want us to treat those who oppose us.

So yes, there is a lot of good theology in the Psalms, but we must be careful about what we take as Godly instruction rather than mere (but understandable) human frustration with the wicked .

[GoBahnsen]

Psalm 5:5

"The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity."

This is a well known proof text claiming that God in fact hates sinners. But there are a few things to keep in mind here.

First:

Christ uses the word hate in the sense of preference. Prefering one thing over another:

Luke 14:26

"If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple."

Now we do not believe that Christ taught us to hate our parents - that would violate the commandment of God. We also know that this deals with preference because Christ explains so in a companion text:

Matthew 10:37

"He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me."

So love and hate could merely be pointing to preference.

Second:


It could also be that Psalm 5:5 is a cursing Psalms. These I do not believe are to be taken as doctrine. They just show the frustration of Godly men with the evil around them

Example:

Psalm 139:21,22

"Do not I hate them, O LORD, that hate thee? and am not I grieved with those that rise up against thee? I hate them with perfect hatred: I count them mine enemies."

This is not how we are to think of our enemies or unbelievers according to Christ. See also Ps.26:5

Or how the Psalmist preay for his enemies:

Psalm 109:8-14

"Let his days be few; and let another take his office.Let his children be fatherless, and his wife a widow. Let his children be continually vagabonds, and beg: let them seek their bread also out of their desolate places.Let the extortioner catch all that he hath; and let the strangers spoil his labour.Let there be none to extend mercy unto him: neither let there be any to favour his fatherless children.Let his posterity be cut off; and in the generation following let their name be blotted out. Let the iniquity of his fathers be remembered with the LORD; and let not the sin of his mother be blotted out."

This again, I believe, does not reflect the mind of Christ, or how God would want us to treat those who oppose us.

So yes, there is a lot of good theology in the Psalms, but we must be careful about what we take as Godly instruction rather than mere (but understandable) human frustration with the wicked .

Yes, let's be careful.

[seer]

Yes, let's be careful.

Yes, like saying God hates those Christ died for...

[GoBahnsen]

Yes, like saying God hates those Christ died for...

For one thing, you have never heard me say God hates those Christ died for. And even as you quoted from the Psalms about David hating his enemies with a perfect hatred, if we speak of God's hatred, we are not speaking of the same kind of hatred that evil beings hate with. We do have to be careful don't we? I agree with you, we are not supposed to hate our parents. This is a style of teaching whereby ideas are contrasted against each other. In that Jewish culture, you did what dad said. It was radical for Jesus to be saying that He was more important than dad or mom.

[seer]

For one thing, you have never heard me say God hates those Christ died for. And even as you quoted from the Psalms about David hating his enemies with a perfect hatred, if we speak of God's hatred, we are not speaking of the same kind of hatred that evil beings hate with.

We are speaking od David's hated for men. Which is not in line with the teaching of Christ. Period. We are to love our enemies.

And let me ask you Gb, is this how we should pray for our enemies:

Psalm 109:8-14

"Let his days be few; and let another take his office.Let his children be fatherless, and his wife a widow. Let his children be continually vagabonds, and beg: let them seek their bread also out of their desolate places.Let the extortioner catch all that he hath; and let the strangers spoil his labour.Let there be none to extend mercy unto him: neither let there be any to favour his fatherless children.Let his posterity be cut off; and in the generation following let their name be blotted out. Let the iniquity of his fathers be remembered with the LORD; and let not the sin of his mother be blotted out."

I agree with you, we are not supposed to hate our parents. This is a style of teaching whereby ideas are contrasted against each other. In that Jewish culture, you did what dad said. It was radical for Jesus to be saying that He was more important than dad or mom.

Good so you agree that hate doesn't really mean hate here....

[JCA]

I believe it is true that "hate" in the contexts mentioned, means to "love less".

You are to love your family less than you love God. By doing so, this also extends an understanding of what Gods 'hate' truly is. And I'll try and explain it here.

I do not believe that God hates anything at all, to be honest. It does not seem to be in His nature. Also, what people don't seem to realise is, the opposite of love ISN'T hate.. it is indifference. Hate is generally based upon a misguided understanding of 'love'. Most reasons people hate, is based in some feeling of love for something else. If you think about it, you will see what I mean. Indifference, however, is a total lack of feeling for something. And this is what God feels for 'sinners' and 'sin'. There is no love in God for these things. Nor is there hate.. just a pure indifference.

I can deal with people 'hating' me.. I don't deal well with being ignored and 'shrugged off'.. this is a form of indifference (as long as there is no emotioon driving the ignoring).

Those that are judged to have sinned against God, will be bereft of His Love, and that in itself will be punishment. They will be unprotected from the fiery destruction, while those that God 'loves' and has feelings for, will be 'saved'.


I hope that makes some sense. It's early, and my tea only just got here


Love and Peace

:jca:

[Theolog]

I believe it is true that "hate" in the contexts mentioned, means to "love less".

You are to love your family less than you love God. By doing so, this also extends an understanding of what Gods 'hate' truly is. And I'll try and explain it here.

I do not believe that God hates anything at all, to be honest. It does not seem to be in His nature. Also, what people don't seem to realise is, the opposite of love ISN'T hate.. it is indifference. Hate is generally based upon a misguided understanding of 'love'. Most reasons people hate, is based in some feeling of love for something else. If you think about it, you will see what I mean. Indifference, however, is a total lack of feeling for something. And this is what God feels for 'sinners' and 'sin'. There is no love in God for these things. Nor is there hate.. just a pure indifference.

I can deal with people 'hating' me.. I don't deal well with being ignored and 'shrugged off'.. this is a form of indifference (as long as there is no emotioon driving the ignoring).
Those that are judged to have sinned against God, will be bereft of His Love, and that in itself will be punishment. They will be unprotected from the fiery destruction, while those that God 'loves' and has feelings for, will be 'saved'.

I hope that makes some sense. It's early, and my tea only just got here
Love and Peace
:jca:

Indifference seems like it's a little weak when God refuses to have mercy on them and throws them in hell for eternity.

Gods love seems to be the deciding factor on who gets mercy and who doesn't.

[JCA]

Indifference seems like it's a little weak when God refuses to have mercy on them and throws them in hell for eternity.

Gods love seems to be the deciding factor on who gets mercy and who doesn't.

That would be if you believed that this is what God does. I am of a different opinion as to what the text means in such places.

And I fully agree with your last line, and basically say that in my previous post.


L&P


:jca:

[GoBahnsen]

That would be if you believed that this is what God does. I am of a different opinion as to what the text means in such places.

And I fully agree with your last line, and basically say that in my previous post.


L&P


:jca:

I have to agree with Theolog.
For me, I don't believe God is ever indifferent about anything in His creation, including the ants that march in single file at His command. But just how God really feels inside, I don't think I have a clue. I think I would have to be God to know how he feels. What God has revealed we can know, but even that we struggle with.

[seer]

But just how God really feels inside, I don't think I have a clue.

Sure we do - God so LOVED the world... That's how He feels inside!

[GoBahnsen]

But just how God really feels inside, I don't think I have a clue.

Sure we do - God so LOVED the world... That's how He feels inside!

Do I really come off that badly? Forgive me when I give trite answers, because when I read them from others, it really grieves me. Then the gloating icons to top it off.
To what ever extent I then do it back, I violate the commandment to love my neighbor as myself. If you are being humorous, forgive me for this sad response. Otherwise, perhaps I have so tarnished my reputation on this forum that I am only deserving of this type of come back.
Though I know you often disagree with my view, I was starting to devlope some respect for your answers.

[seer]

Do I really come off that badly? Forgive me when I give trite answers, because when I read them from others, it really grieves me. Then the gloating icons to top it off.
To what ever extent I then do it back, I violate the commandment to love my neighbor as myself. If you are being humorous, forgive me for this sad response. Otherwise, perhaps I have so tarnished my reputation on this forum that I am only deserving of this type of come back.
Though I know you often disagree with my view, I was starting to devlope some respect for your answers.

Yes, I was being humorous. But I think the truth is in there. We do know how God feels towards humans - even ungodly humans - He loves them.

[GoBahnsen]

Yes, I was being humorous. But I think the truth is in there. We do know how God feels towards humans - even ungodly humans - He loves them.

I'm relieved to hear that you were not serious. Love is not a feeling. Though feelings may and do accompany love. The emotions of a transcendant, perfectly holy Being, are beyond my ability to comment on. This is what I was referring to.

[seer]

Though feelings may and do accompany love. The emotions of a transcendant, perfectly holy Being, are beyond my ability to comment on. This is what I was referring to.

I think that genuine affection is feeling based - though it's more than that. And I also believe that we can know how God feels - because He has told us so. God is an emotional being - according to scripture. Nothing wrong with that...

[GoBahnsen]

Though feelings may and do accompany love. The emotions of a transcendant, perfectly holy Being, are beyond my ability to comment on. This is what I was referring to.

I think that genuine affection is feeling based - though it's more than that. And I also believe that we can know how God feels - because He has told us so. God is an emotional being - according to scripture. Nothing wrong with that...

I thought we were talking about love, not genuine affection. Love is a commitment to promote the good of another simply because they need good done unto them. God has required us to be willing to do good unto our enemies, but we are not sinning if we do not have genuine affection for them as we do.