Dead babies, idiots, brain-dead and Predestination

[Theolog]

I ran this a couple of years ago maybe it time for it again.

Can dead babies, idiots, brain dead people and people that have never heard the gospel be saved.

The reasoning goes something like this: If a person must choose Christ to be saved then how is a baby to be saved? Obviously a baby cannot choose anything.

Man also reasons that if a baby never sinned how could it be judged for sin? This appears to be logical until you realize all mankind even babies are under the curse of the sin of Adam. In other words man is imputed Adams sin and born under the curse of sin, even babies.

With a theological system that requires that a person must make a choice to follow Christ before regeneration can occur it gets a little sticky for babies and retarded people.

In mans unbiblical reasoning he comes up with the age of accountability doctrine and the salvation for all idiots’ doctrine. If you have ever attended a baby’s funeral it is easy to understand why man would want to believe this doctrine.

The Calvinist doctrine of Gods sovereignty in election easily solves the problem. It goes something like this:

God chooses whom He has foreknown and loved before the earth was even made and gives them saving faith. He can do this even to babies in the womb if He chooses. If salvation depends on Gods free will in making the choice there is hope for babies. If it depends on mans free will in making a choice dead babies are toast.

The real message at dead babies funerals is not all babies go to heaven but Look what sin does or do you trust in God to do what is good, holy and perfect.

I also believe that God can save an adult that is in a coma and brain dead if He wants to.

He can save them all if he chooses but He does not have to.

God will have mercy on whom He wants to have mercy.

Ok lets hear the nay sayers.

[GoBahnsen]

I ran this a couple of years ago maybe it time for it again.

Can dead babies, idiots, brain dead people and people that have never heard the gospel be saved.

The reasoning goes something like this: If a person must choose Christ to be saved then how is a baby to be saved? Obviously a baby cannot choose anything.

Man also reasons that if a baby never sinned how could it be judged for sin? This appears to be logical until you realize all mankind even babies are under the curse of the sin of Adam. In other words man is imputed Adams sin and born under the curse of sin, even babies.

With a theological system that requires that a person must make a choice to follow Christ before regeneration can occur it gets a little sticky for babies and retarded people.

In mans unbiblical reasoning he comes up with the age of accountability doctrine and the salvation for all idiots’ doctrine. If you have ever attended a baby’s funeral it is easy to understand why man would want to believe this doctrine.

The Calvinist doctrine of Gods sovereignty in election easily solves the problem. It goes something like this:

God chooses whom He has foreknown and loved before the earth was even made and gives them saving faith. He can do this even to babies in the womb if He chooses. If salvation depends on Gods free will in making the choice there is hope for babies. If it depends on mans free will in making a choice dead babies are toast.

The real message at dead babies funerals is not all babies go to heaven but Look what sin does or do you trust in God to do what is good, holy and perfect.

I also believe that God can save an adult that is in a coma and brain dead if He wants to.

He can save them all if he chooses but He does not have to.

God will have mercy on whom He wants to have mercy.

Ok lets hear the nay sayers.

Interesting post Theo. Perhaps you are venturing into some speculation here, but which of us hasn't? I too see God in charge, electing according to His good pleasure. I also see Him as merciful and good. I have no idea how He will make His case by case judgments, with idiots or dead babies. I have confidence that the Judge of all the earth will do right. I'm so thankful He sent the Gospel my way and has given me what understanding I do have. I'm thankful to be refective in thought. So many I know appear to rush through life not stopping to think through doctrinal issues. I respect even those who I disagree with on this forum, who are fellow reflective thinkers. But in the end the only difference between any of us will be a five letter word...Grace. That's my view.

[c968]

I think it's interesting also that John the Baptist was filled with the Spirit from his mother's womb. That makes me wonder just how mentally advanced someone has to be to exercise faith. To what degree did God reveal Himself or his truth to John in order for him to respond in faith and be filled with the Spirit? Scripture doesn't say. It leads me to a place where I have to agree with Deut 29:29 that "The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but those things which are revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may do all the words of this law." An interesting thread, indeed!
NKJV

[GoBahnsen]

I think it's interesting also that John the Baptist was filled with the Spirit from his mother's womb. That makes me wonder just how mentally advanced someone has to be to exercise faith. To what degree did God reveal Himself or his truth to John in order for him to respond in faith and be filled with the Spirit? Scripture doesn't say. It leads me to a place where I have to agree with Deut 29:29 that "The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but those things which are revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may do all the words of this law." An interesting thread, indeed!
NKJV

Yes, I often refer to John the Baptist as a case in point of elective grace. God's ways truly are past finding out in so many respects.

[Chappie]

Yes, I often refer to John the Baptist as a case in point of elective grace. God's ways truly are past finding out in so many respects.

Perhaps John made his choice in the womb. Never mind brain dead babies and idiots. God can communicate with them.

It is the soul that is our seat of consiscienceness, not the brain. The brain is simply the physical mechanism through which we gain expression in the physical realm. A brain that malfunctions does not cause the soul to do the same.

All these physical hinderances mentioned at the beginning of this thread, do not hinder God. Once again we think that man's limitations are limitations on God also. They may appear as brain dead idiots to us, but for God, no problem...

Anyway, I've met a few brain dead idiots in my day, I haven't met any here on this board yet. But I have met a few on other boards, they appear normal without intense evaluation.

[7thangel]

Interesting post Theo. Perhaps you are venturing into some speculation here, but which of us hasn't? I too see God in charge, electing according to His good pleasure. I also see Him as merciful and good. I have no idea how He will make His case by case judgments, with idiots or dead babies. I have confidence that the Judge of all the earth will do right. I'm so thankful He sent the Gospel my way and has given me what understanding I do have. I'm thankful to be refective in thought. So many I know appear to rush through life not stopping to think through doctrinal issues. I respect even those who I disagree with on this forum, who are fellow reflective thinkers. But in the end the only difference between any of us will be a five letter word...Grace. That's my view.

But for anyone not knowing even how to spell the word "G-R-A-C-E" what is the sense of the commandment of accepting Christ? (My point is that election is therefore purely God's predestination)

And for anyone who cannot know perfectly how are they saved through "GRACE," how can they be authorized to lead? Didn't Christ said, if the blind leads the blind both shall fall on the ditch? Much more how did they know they are saved?

And a question, if you do not mind, do you admit that your salvation is mere speculation?

[GoBahnsen]

But for anyone not knowing even how to spell the word "G-R-A-C-E" what is the sense of the commandment of accepting Christ? (My point is that election is therefore purely God's predestination)

And for anyone who cannot know perfectly how are they saved through "GRACE," how can they be authorized to lead? Didn't Christ said, if the blind leads the blind both shall fall on the ditch? Much more how did they know they are saved?

And a question, if you do not mind, do you admit that your salvation is mere speculation?

How did I not spell grace properly? Your post appears to be a bit on the rambling side. I don't find your e-mail very compelling. I will pass on trying to respond to something that seems too vague. My Salvation is based upon the sure Word of God, not speculation. I have faith in Jesus, which I consider to be a gift of grace. Have a nice day 7th. Glad you are in the Word.

[7thangel]

How did I not spell grace properly? Your post appears to be a bit on the rambling side. I don't find your e-mail very compelling. I will pass on trying to respond to something that seems too vague. My Salvation is based upon the sure Word of God, not speculation. I have faith in Jesus, which I consider to be a gift of grace. Have a nice day 7th. Glad you are in the Word.

I am having a problem recalling exactly what I mean, but surely it is not about your spelling of words. It has something to do with certainties of your salvation, having honest admission that to those whom you do not agree seems rational too, making yourself speculative of your salvation. Just in case, no need to respond unto this.

And regarding the e-mail in the website, the email is intended for neophytes. Meat will surely make them stumble in faith.

And regarding vagueness. I really need to change the way I approach questions. But thanks, noted with appreciation.

[Theolog]

I am having a problem recalling exactly what I mean, but surely it is not about your spelling of words. It has something to do with certainties of your salvation, having honest admission that to those whom you do not agree seems rational too, making yourself speculative of your salvation. Just in case, no need to respond unto this.

And regarding the e-mail in the website, the email is intended for neophytes. Meat will surely make them stumble in faith.

And regarding vagueness. I really need to change the way I approach questions. But thanks, noted with appreciation.

Ahh, the abstract mind. best to adhere to the bottom part of my sig.

[elysian]

There is more to understanding than cognition.

I believe God is a God of mercy and of grace.

For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel--not with words of human wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.
For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written:
"I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate." (Isaiah 29:14)
Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength. Brothers, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. He chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things -- and the things that are not -- to nullify the things that are, so that no one may boast before him. It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God--that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. Therefore, as it is written: "Let him who boasts boast in the Lord."

1 Corinthians 1:17-30 (NIV)

Perhaps when Jesus said to come to Him with the trusting faith of a child this is what He meant. Our reason and intelligence are good gifts, but they often stand in the way of that trusting faith. Sometimes we rely only upon our own reason and crowd out or explain away the very faith that saves us- by our own "wisdom" we become stupid. This is what I believe Paul is talking about.

If we are called to love God with our whole being, who is to say that the mentally impaired are not capable, or that infants- even the preborn- are not capable of love? Again, God is the Potter, we are the clay. I believe God does have intent for us from the very beginning, and that He does grant us the capability and the desire to seek Him. That capability and desire to seek God and to love Him is given by God alone and does not have to be contingent upon age or intelligence.

[Chappie]

There is more to understanding than cognition.

I believe God is a God of mercy and of grace.

For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel--not with words of human wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.
For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written:
"I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate." (Isaiah 29:14)
Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength. Brothers, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. He chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things -- and the things that are not -- to nullify the things that are, so that no one may boast before him. It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God--that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. Therefore, as it is written: "Let him who boasts boast in the Lord."

1 Corinthians 1:17-30 (NIV)

Perhaps when Jesus said to come to Him with the trusting faith of a child this is what He meant. Our reason and intelligence are good gifts, but they often stand in the way of that trusting faith.

Must say that I agree with your post from a context and content perspective. My post is not a rebuttal to anything, perhaps just an attempt to clarify or even add my perspective to things.

Calvinist will take what I have underlined above, remove intelligence and reason as a necessary ingredient for any valid understanding of scripture, and end up with a wrong conclusion. With that in mind, I would say that while reason, intelligence and logic are often used to end up slightly to the left or to the right of what scripture intends, it is always the use of faulty reason that ends up with these results. (Lack of intelligent application) When we are led astray by reason, wisdom, and logic, it is often because we mix in a little pride. And when considering wisdom we must always remember that true wisdom is of God. Still I essentially agree with your comments...

Sometimes we rely only upon our own reason and crowd out or explain away the very faith that saves us- by our own "wisdom" we become stupid. This is what I believe Paul is talking about.

Precisely..... But all knowledge must be received with wisdom and reason. And we have neither reason nor wisdom save that which is called our own. What we must never forget to do is to consider its source. What to do, what to do?

The problem is now to sort out our earthly gained wisdom from wisdom that is given from above. And while earthly wisdom is necessary, we must be sure that it yields to wisdom from above..... Neither is a bad thing, we must strive to always apply each in harmony with a heavenly perspective. Neither is to be discarded...

If we are called to love God with our whole being, who is to say that the mentally impaired are not capable, or that infants- even the preborn- are not capable of love? Again, God is the Potter, we are the clay. I believe God does have intent for us from the very beginning, and that He does grant us the capability and the desire to seek Him. That capability and desire to seek God and to love Him is given by God alone and does not have to be contingent upon age or intelligence.

Calvinists take the passage that says that no man seeks God and the put a period there and immediately begin to formulate doctrine. They do not exegete the passage within the context of the whole of scripture. Lest they find that the true understanding of the passage is that “No man seeks after God on his own, without being prompted to do so by God:

Hence the passage that says, "seek me and live"; which in light of an ability to do so is neither redundant not is it a command to do that which is impossible. Which definitely exposes the truth that it is possible for men to seek God?

How does God prompt men to seek him? First and foremost, by the things that are. Creation itself is a prompt for men to seek God. Then we have his use of the prophets, and finally Christ & his written word. All of these prompts demand a response. Each demand that man acquiesce or reject.

[elysian]

C.S. Lewis considered pride to be the "mother of all sins"- when we in our human wisdom think we know better than God.

Pride was the sin that led to the Fall... the belief that we could be as God and possess the knowledge of good and evil.

Our intelligence and reason are good gifts when they are put into submission to God's will.

It is my strong belief that God holds us accountable based on the understanding and ability He has given us: did we seek Him with our whole heart and our whole mind? Did we love Him above all else? We are judged according to our understanding and ability as Jesus shows:

"But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked." Luke 12:48 (NIV)

Jesus also tells us the last will be first and the first will be last. I believe He has a special place set aside for those who are weak of body and mind, and that He has nothing but mercy toward them.

"Blessed are the poor in spirit,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are those who mourn,
for they will be comforted.
Blessed are the meek,
for they will inherit the earth.
Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
for they will be filled.
Blessed are the merciful,
for they will be shown mercy.
Blessed are the pure in heart,
for they will see God.
Blessed are the peacemakers,
for they will be called sons of God.
Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
"Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you." Matthew 5:3-11 (NIV)

[7thangel]

Ahh, the abstract mind. best to adhere to the bottom part of my sig.

Thanks for the advise, it never occured in my mind to do so. It is perfect thing for me to do.

[Theolog]

Perhaps John made his choice in the womb. Never mind brain dead babies and idiots. God can communicate with them.

Do you have a verse to back this up or is it just a hunch??

[Chappie]

Do you have a verse to back this up or is it just a hunch??

I was exegeting along the reformed tradition. Just a hunch..... For now...