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The false teaching: . . . rose from the grave to purchase a place for us in heaven.

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
    You're in "that mode" again, aren't you? Of COURSE the atonement is not "alleged" -- it's the notion that he "purchased" a place in Heaven. He's HEIR, an we are JOINT heirs with Him --- that's the part that seems weird to me - that he "purchased" a place for us.
    What mode? I'm trying to understand the justification for this "purchased" or "bought" through or by the resurrection. I see it as simply not right. Some may not believe to the saving of their souls on account of it. It is bad enough some have doubted God's justification for the substitutionary atonement.
    The resurrection and its true role is not to be alleged either.


    Come back when you're not so grumpy.

    And I want to go into that.
    Just call me Oscar. But that was, I thought a legitimate comment, not being grouchy.
    . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
      I understand the argument now but I can't help but think that it may be better to think of Jesus's death and his resurrection as one inseparable event. Jesus's statement "it is finished" (although said while he was still alive) does seem to indicate a sort of finality but there is certainly theological significance to the resurrection itself, as Paul appeals to it as the cornerstone of faith in 1 Corinthians 15:17: "And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. "
      The resurrection is indeed key as evidence of what was completed prior to Christ's physical death. And was declared by His resurrection to be truly the Son of God (Romans 1:4). And we are justified in believing in the finished work by the resurrection (Romans 4:25). At issue is not the resurrection. But somehow Christ had to "buy" our salvation by being raised from the dead? That is almost as bad as teaching that Jesus had to go to Hell while in the grave to pay for our sins.
      Last edited by 37818; 06-22-2014, 10:58 PM.
      . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

      . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

      Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by 37818 View Post
        The resurrection is indeed key as evidence of what was completed prior to Christ's physical death. And was declared by His resurrection to be truly the Son of God (Romans 1:4). And we are justified in believing in the finished work by the resurrection (Romans 4:25). At issue is not the resurrection. But somehow Christ had to "buy" our salvation by being raised from the dead? That is almost as bad as teaching that Jesus had to go to Hell while in the grave to pay for our sins.
        I am beginning to come around to this line of thinking.
        "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

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        • #19
          Originally posted by 37818 View Post
          Is it true that by the resurrection Christ purchased salvation?
          That wasn't your premise -- it was about purchasing a "place in heaven".
          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
            Who's teaching that?
            Originally posted by 37818 View Post
            The Evangelism Explosion gospel.
            I used to be a EE instructor and this is not an accurate portrayal of the EE's presentation of the gospel. The whole EE statement is (from my EE outline):
            D. Christ.
            1. Who He is – the infinite God-man.
            John 1:1, 14
            John 20:28
            2. What He did – He died on the cross and rose from the dead to pay the penalty for our sins and to purchase a place in heaven for us which He offers as a gift.
            So you are falsely separating something out that isn't separated in the presentation. It's one long statement of what Christ did.
            "What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer

            "... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Littlejoe View Post
              I used to be a EE instructor and this is not an accurate portrayal of the EE's presentation of the gospel. The whole EE statement is (from my EE outline):
              D. Christ.
              1. Who He is – the infinite God-man.
              John 1:1, 14
              John 20:28
              2. What He did – He died on the cross and rose from the dead to pay the penalty for our sins and to purchase a place in heaven for us which He offers as a gift.
              So you are falsely separating something out that isn't separated in the presentation. It's one long statement of what Christ did.
              Yeah, I was involved in EE, but it's been YEARS ago, and I don't remember anything as problematic as 37 is implying.

              In FACT, this whole thing seems a bit "chicken and egg" to me ---
              A) What is the atoning death on the cross without Jesus' resurrection?
              2) What is the resurrection without the atoning death on the cross?

              Is ANYBODY trying to push "the resurrection" WITHOUT the atoning death?
              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                Yeah, we're talking there about our "inheritance", not something "purchased" for us. BUT, I'm certainly open to the fact that He "purchased for us" redemption, and WITH that comes...

                I've just never heard it put that he "purchased a place in Heaven".
                Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                Explain how you understand "purchased" from " hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, . . ?"
                Seems to me to be a lot of "semantic quibbling"... But whatever. Inductive reasoning could reasonably conclude that IF there is an inheritance reserved in Heaven for you, then it stands to reason that someone purchased (or earned) it for you...and Peter says you are begotten to it by Christ's Resurrection, not by his death on the cross. But, TBH, I think it was ALL of it, not just one part. If you take away ANY component of Christ, then he ceases to be Christ...i.e. born of a virgin, sinless life, beaten and crucified, resurrected. Which part is unimportant enough that you could dismiss it?

                ETA: I see you ninja'd me a bit CP, we basically said the same thing!
                "What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer

                "... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                  The resurrection is indeed key as evidence of what was completed prior to Christ's physical death.
                  I don't think it's just "key evidence" -- I think Paul saw "power" in the resurrection:

                  Source: Philippians 3:8-14 KJV

                  ) (8) Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, (9) And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: (10) That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; (11) If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead. (12) Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. (13) Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, (14) I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

                  © Copyright Original Source



                  Again, MY first "objection" was the premise that WHATEVER it was (the atoning death or the resurrection or BOTH) was about "purchasing a place in heaven", as opposed to "purchasing for us redemption".

                  But, again, that's a bit "chicken or the egg" - and I guess I see it as....

                  Justice -- we DESERVE Hell
                  Mercy -- He purchased for us redemption
                  Grace -- BECAUSE of that, we "get Heaven".

                  Perhaps it would help if 37 posted an ACTUAL CITATION of somebody saying something that 37 claims is "false teaching"
                  The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Littlejoe View Post
                    Seems to me to be a lot of "semantic quibbling"... But whatever. Inductive reasoning could reasonably conclude that IF there is an inheritance reserved in Heaven for you, then it stands to reason that someone purchased (or earned) it for you...and Peter says you are begotten to it by Christ's Resurrection, not by his death on the cross. But, TBH, I think it was ALL of it, not just one part. If you take away ANY component of Christ, then he ceases to be Christ...i.e. born of a virgin, sinless life, beaten and crucified, resurrected. Which part is unimportant enough that you could dismiss it?

                    ETA: I see you ninja'd me a bit CP, we basically said the same thing!
                    Yeah.
                    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Littlejoe View Post
                      Seems to me to be a lot of "semantic quibbling"... But whatever. Inductive reasoning could reasonably conclude that IF there is an inheritance reserved in Heaven for you, then it stands to reason that someone purchased (or earned) it for you...and Peter says you are begotten to it by Christ's Resurrection, not by his death on the cross. But, TBH, I think it was ALL of it, not just one part. If you take away ANY component of Christ, then he ceases to be Christ...i.e. born of a virgin, sinless life, beaten and crucified, resurrected. Which part is unimportant enough that you could dismiss it?
                      There are now a number of issues. Did you explain how "begotten" equates to "a purchase?" Conclusions by way of "inductive" reasoning are not always true. You did not present the inductive argument you alleged to be there. So I cannot refute what was not presented. Other than say it "is not there." Now not knowing about the "virgin" birth or "deity" of Christ, in and of itself does not prevent one from being "saved." But if a person is "saved" once those teachings are presented, one would not be inclined to deny such. So I deny that the bodily resurrection did anything to obtain eternal life. So am I lost? I affirm the necessity of the bodily resurrection to the gospel, as an essential to be saved. It is true, therefore eternal life was really bought on the cross. It salvation was already purchased when Jesus rose from the dead. Not on the account of being rose from the dead. Now that being said, as I believe, because I deny, salvation was purchased by or through the resurrection, am I not really saved?
                      Last edited by 37818; 06-24-2014, 02:13 PM.
                      . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                      . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                      Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                      Comment

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